1
00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:04,550
[Music]

2
00:00:42,049 --> 00:00:35,170
[Applause]

3
00:00:42,059 --> 00:00:49,750
foreign

4
00:01:39,550 --> 00:01:16,130
[Music]

5
00:01:43,670 --> 00:01:42,230
ERS a video good evening good morning

6
00:01:45,469 --> 00:01:43,680
good afternoon wherever you may be

7
00:01:46,910 --> 00:01:45,479
Across the Nation around the world my

8
00:01:49,069 --> 00:01:46,920
name is Leah Prime and this is the

9
00:01:50,450 --> 00:01:49,079
invisible night school for those of you

10
00:01:52,249 --> 00:01:50,460
just joining us the invisible night

11
00:01:54,230 --> 00:01:52,259
school is a small Consortium of lay

12
00:01:56,270 --> 00:01:54,240
researchers and Scholars pursuing the

13
00:01:58,550 --> 00:01:56,280
study and exploration of ufology high

14
00:02:00,770 --> 00:01:58,560
strangeness and the phenomenon ins is

15
00:02:02,870 --> 00:02:00,780
not a monolith we represent varied ideas

16
00:02:04,550 --> 00:02:02,880
backgrounds disciplines and experiences

17
00:02:06,230 --> 00:02:04,560
and seek to engage in good faith

18
00:02:09,529 --> 00:02:06,240
dialogue with other curious minds

19
00:02:12,229 --> 00:02:09,539
tonight we are joined by Vanessa waloco

20
00:02:14,330 --> 00:02:12,239
Vanessa is a chain mailer crafter and

21
00:02:16,729 --> 00:02:14,340
Chaos magician you can find her work at

22
00:02:18,229 --> 00:02:16,739
Cali butterfly her podcast about belief

23
00:02:20,630 --> 00:02:18,239
and transformation is called personal

24
00:02:22,309 --> 00:02:20,640
pans she'll be joining us in just a few

25
00:02:23,750 --> 00:02:22,319
minutes I know she's sorting out some

26
00:02:25,010 --> 00:02:23,760
technical difficulties so in the

27
00:02:27,949 --> 00:02:25,020
meantime I'm just going to say some hi

28
00:02:30,350 --> 00:02:27,959
to some of our regular joiners here on

29
00:02:33,949 --> 00:02:30,360
Wednesday what's going on spooky Simon

30
00:02:36,650 --> 00:02:33,959
good to see you the Earth of course

31
00:02:38,990 --> 00:02:36,660
Swank who is

32
00:02:40,309 --> 00:02:39,000
let's see oh Fringe nice to see you

33
00:02:41,630 --> 00:02:40,319
friend

34
00:02:44,449 --> 00:02:41,640
um Stephen

35
00:02:46,369 --> 00:02:44,459
Jay always a pleasure I know you read in

36
00:02:49,009 --> 00:02:46,379
the same circles as Vanessa um I think

37
00:02:51,229 --> 00:02:49,019
we actually sort of connected uh the

38
00:02:52,490 --> 00:02:51,239
three of us through one another

39
00:02:54,350 --> 00:02:52,500
um and I'm also going to bring on my

40
00:02:56,449 --> 00:02:54,360
co-host for the evening I have Louis

41
00:02:58,130 --> 00:02:56,459
caitano

42
00:03:01,850 --> 00:02:58,140
and Cambo

43
00:03:04,550 --> 00:03:01,860
we are of course lacking the light of

44
00:03:06,410 --> 00:03:04,560
Our Lives Nick who's off for the evening

45
00:03:08,930 --> 00:03:06,420
on family duties but he will be back

46
00:03:11,750 --> 00:03:08,940
next week

47
00:03:13,610 --> 00:03:11,760
I can't wait Mario yes I know people

48
00:03:16,190 --> 00:03:13,620
people even asked about where Nick was

49
00:03:18,170 --> 00:03:16,200
this evening I felt like wow Nick is

50
00:03:20,149 --> 00:03:18,180
gathering a fan base it's pretty

51
00:03:22,850 --> 00:03:20,159
incredible deleted his Twitter account

52
00:03:25,550 --> 00:03:22,860
now he's not showing up people are

53
00:03:26,869 --> 00:03:25,560
asking questions people are asking

54
00:03:28,910 --> 00:03:26,879
questions and you're right Nick is

55
00:03:30,110 --> 00:03:28,920
currently off of Twitter which

56
00:03:32,750 --> 00:03:30,120
um

57
00:03:34,729 --> 00:03:32,760
I can't personally I say I blame him yes

58
00:03:38,390 --> 00:03:34,739
I know like this is a very good idea I

59
00:03:41,089 --> 00:03:38,400
love Twitter but also it is the infernal

60
00:03:43,070 --> 00:03:41,099
hell site and

61
00:03:44,869 --> 00:03:43,080
um yeah I'm sure it's doing a tremendous

62
00:03:46,910 --> 00:03:44,879
amount of good for his attention span to

63
00:03:48,470 --> 00:03:46,920
be off of it uh Steve you've been

64
00:03:51,170 --> 00:03:48,480
Steve's even saying the quiet part out

65
00:03:53,710 --> 00:03:51,180
loud here he only came for Nick yeah I

66
00:03:59,570 --> 00:03:57,050
so Kevin Lewis who are you guys pretty

67
00:04:01,970 --> 00:03:59,580
good I uh I was just about to say Nick

68
00:04:03,649 --> 00:04:01,980
even though he's not here graced Us in

69
00:04:05,930 --> 00:04:03,659
the Discord Channel

70
00:04:09,110 --> 00:04:05,940
um and we have the link in the show

71
00:04:11,570 --> 00:04:09,120
notes below uh with a article that we

72
00:04:14,030 --> 00:04:11,580
could talk about to start the show from

73
00:04:16,969 --> 00:04:14,040
the New York Post the headline was

74
00:04:19,789 --> 00:04:16,979
Pentagon officials suggest alien

75
00:04:22,430 --> 00:04:19,799
Mothership in our solar system could

76
00:04:24,590 --> 00:04:22,440
send many probes to Earth

77
00:04:28,070 --> 00:04:24,600
and that's published March 15th and it's

78
00:04:31,070 --> 00:04:28,080
by Greg laner Fox News

79
00:04:35,150 --> 00:04:31,080
and uh I just like the headline is of

80
00:04:37,550 --> 00:04:35,160
course uh quite you know it says sort of

81
00:04:40,070 --> 00:04:37,560
suggest grammatically that the ship is

82
00:04:42,350 --> 00:04:40,080
in our solar system did you guys see

83
00:04:44,270 --> 00:04:42,360
that headline what do you think of that

84
00:04:57,610 --> 00:04:44,280
I didn't see it I think the New York

85
00:05:02,090 --> 00:04:59,570
is that where that's where Green Street

86
00:05:03,050 --> 00:05:02,100
works right is that right yeah yes okay

87
00:05:05,390 --> 00:05:03,060
yeah

88
00:05:07,730 --> 00:05:05,400
not exactly uh selling a hair Campbell

89
00:05:09,710 --> 00:05:07,740
yeah uh but no no I'm not trying to say

90
00:05:11,330 --> 00:05:09,720
it's uh credible uh what I was actually

91
00:05:13,969 --> 00:05:11,340
getting at which is what Nick was uh

92
00:05:16,249 --> 00:05:13,979
suggesting uh by sharing it um is that

93
00:05:17,990 --> 00:05:16,259
it's a misleading title and uh aren't

94
00:05:20,150 --> 00:05:18,000
those always sort of like the clickbaity

95
00:05:23,210 --> 00:05:20,160
things the issue we have in this subject

96
00:05:24,670 --> 00:05:23,220
and it was uh actually the real quote

97
00:05:28,610 --> 00:05:24,680
was

98
00:05:31,430 --> 00:05:28,620
uh that uh an artificial object could

99
00:05:32,689 --> 00:05:31,440
potentially be so you know that's a big

100
00:05:34,370 --> 00:05:32,699
difference anyway there's a lot of

101
00:05:36,050 --> 00:05:34,380
weasel words there yeah we've got our

102
00:05:38,830 --> 00:05:36,060
guests here now though so let's uh move

103
00:05:43,189 --> 00:05:41,210
we can finish this thought come on cable

104
00:05:45,189 --> 00:05:43,199
do you want to read the excerpt what

105
00:05:48,650 --> 00:05:45,199
episode

106
00:05:50,629 --> 00:05:48,660
shut up yeah just go ahead finish okay

107
00:05:52,249 --> 00:05:50,639
do you think there's actually a parent

108
00:05:53,570 --> 00:05:52,259
Craft

109
00:05:57,830 --> 00:05:53,580
um okay well I'll just give the context

110
00:05:59,749 --> 00:05:57,840
then since we have a second here okay so

111
00:06:01,550 --> 00:05:59,759
an artificial Interstellar object could

112
00:06:03,290 --> 00:06:01,560
potentially be a parent craft that

113
00:06:05,090 --> 00:06:03,300
releases many small probes during its

114
00:06:07,550 --> 00:06:05,100
close passage to Earth an operational

115
00:06:09,890 --> 00:06:07,560
construct not too dissimilar from NASA

116
00:06:11,810 --> 00:06:09,900
missions Sean Kirkpatrick director of

117
00:06:13,610 --> 00:06:11,820
pentagon's all domain anomaly resolution

118
00:06:16,129 --> 00:06:13,620
office wrote in a research report

119
00:06:18,070 --> 00:06:16,139
co-work authored by Avi Loeb chairman of

120
00:06:21,050 --> 00:06:18,080
Arvada University's astronomy department

121
00:06:22,070 --> 00:06:21,060
so that's the quote

122
00:06:24,170 --> 00:06:22,080
foreign

123
00:06:26,770 --> 00:06:24,180
it's very different as we see from the

124
00:06:29,870 --> 00:06:26,780
headline but so it's a it's an actual

125
00:06:32,870 --> 00:06:29,880
celestial object now it's only uh

126
00:06:36,350 --> 00:06:32,880
conceptual he's just it's a a update

127
00:06:40,249 --> 00:06:36,360
paper that uh Avi Loeb and uh he

128
00:06:41,270 --> 00:06:40,259
released uh about the physical okay

129
00:06:43,189 --> 00:06:41,280
what's the title of the physical

130
00:06:45,790 --> 00:06:43,199
constraints on unidentified aerial

131
00:06:47,930 --> 00:06:45,800
phenomena and they wrote this thing

132
00:06:49,730 --> 00:06:47,940
basically saying that like no new

133
00:06:51,050 --> 00:06:49,740
physics is required and you'd expect to

134
00:06:52,309 --> 00:06:51,060
see a fireball around the object and

135
00:06:53,990 --> 00:06:52,319
they're saying like even these more

136
00:06:55,730 --> 00:06:54,000
abstract things are possible that's what

137
00:06:56,990 --> 00:06:55,740
we do in other places but they aren't

138
00:07:02,290 --> 00:06:57,000
saying like there's evidence for that

139
00:07:07,010 --> 00:07:05,090
yes it's um

140
00:07:09,170 --> 00:07:07,020
how do I put this lately it is

141
00:07:11,150 --> 00:07:09,180
disheartening watching Avi lobe cosine

142
00:07:12,050 --> 00:07:11,160
on things like this even though they're

143
00:07:14,830 --> 00:07:12,060
sort of

144
00:07:18,290 --> 00:07:14,840
I think being

145
00:07:22,430 --> 00:07:18,300
sensationalized for public consumption

146
00:07:26,629 --> 00:07:22,440
yeah I get the sense that Dr Loeb is

147
00:07:28,610 --> 00:07:26,639
kind of using the subject in a way

148
00:07:31,490 --> 00:07:28,620
that's morally questionable I feel like

149
00:07:34,249 --> 00:07:31,500
he's maybe pushed like he brings on you

150
00:07:36,230 --> 00:07:34,259
know Lou Alexander and Christopher melon

151
00:07:38,510 --> 00:07:36,240
as the Galileo project but then he's

152
00:07:41,390 --> 00:07:38,520
using the money to do like a project

153
00:07:43,490 --> 00:07:41,400
that retrieve debris from a Interstellar

154
00:07:46,129 --> 00:07:43,500
asteroid that landed in the Pacific so

155
00:07:48,469 --> 00:07:46,139
it's not like it's suggested it's more

156
00:07:49,969 --> 00:07:48,479
one-to-one what people think uh of when

157
00:07:52,490 --> 00:07:49,979
they think of UFOs but he's really using

158
00:07:54,409 --> 00:07:52,500
the money for valid scientific Endeavors

159
00:07:55,610 --> 00:07:54,419
but they aren't uh I don't think the

160
00:07:56,990 --> 00:07:55,620
dollars are going where people would

161
00:07:59,930 --> 00:07:57,000
sort of necessarily want them to go

162
00:08:03,170 --> 00:08:01,790
it's an interesting question though it's

163
00:08:05,570 --> 00:08:03,180
like if people are giving the money into

164
00:08:08,029 --> 00:08:05,580
the subject anyway like he's like Oz

165
00:08:10,129 --> 00:08:08,039
Harvard's uh chairs or research or

166
00:08:11,629 --> 00:08:10,139
whatever why can't I do it if I'm a

167
00:08:13,550 --> 00:08:11,639
Harvard professor and I'll put it to

168
00:08:15,170 --> 00:08:13,560
good use like I don't agree with that

169
00:08:17,270 --> 00:08:15,180
necessarily I get the sense that sort of

170
00:08:19,610 --> 00:08:17,280
is his move though

171
00:08:22,249 --> 00:08:19,620
it's probably controversial but whatever

172
00:08:24,170 --> 00:08:22,259
we're on a late night like well not late

173
00:08:28,129 --> 00:08:24,180
night but UFO show so I'll say we're on

174
00:08:30,770 --> 00:08:28,139
our UFO show on YouTube yeah as I said

175
00:08:33,649 --> 00:08:30,780
I've scuttled any uh potential uh public

176
00:08:35,750 --> 00:08:33,659
office Ambitions long ago so I'll just

177
00:08:38,750 --> 00:08:35,760
say anything I wanted this one

178
00:08:40,909 --> 00:08:38,760
Yes Lewis any thoughts before we bring

179
00:08:44,949 --> 00:08:40,919
Vanessa on

180
00:08:49,790 --> 00:08:48,110
excellent our resident intern yeah he's

181
00:08:50,870 --> 00:08:49,800
a little UFO dog

182
00:08:52,850 --> 00:08:50,880
yes

183
00:08:55,190 --> 00:08:52,860
thank you for not all right so without

184
00:08:56,630 --> 00:08:55,200
further delay let's bring Vanessa on

185
00:08:59,509 --> 00:08:56,640
okay

186
00:09:00,310 --> 00:08:59,519
let's do it hey Vanessa hi thank you

187
00:09:02,630 --> 00:09:00,320
very much

188
00:09:04,670 --> 00:09:02,640
of course welcome to the invisible night

189
00:09:06,590 --> 00:09:04,680
school you missed me reading our typical

190
00:09:08,449 --> 00:09:06,600
script and introduction

191
00:09:09,650 --> 00:09:08,459
it's great to see you thanks so much for

192
00:09:12,590 --> 00:09:09,660
joining us good to see you too thanks

193
00:09:13,910 --> 00:09:12,600
for having me of course of course

194
00:09:14,990 --> 00:09:13,920
um so I was wondering if you could just

195
00:09:16,790 --> 00:09:15,000
tell the audience a little bit about

196
00:09:19,070 --> 00:09:16,800
yourself and about your background uh

197
00:09:21,790 --> 00:09:19,080
since you are not a UFO person you're

198
00:09:24,470 --> 00:09:21,800
one of these exotic non-ufo people

199
00:09:27,050 --> 00:09:24,480
I mean I watched X-Files like everybody

200
00:09:28,190 --> 00:09:27,060
else did in the nine years I mean come

201
00:09:31,550 --> 00:09:28,200
on

202
00:09:33,949 --> 00:09:31,560
um but yeah I I well okay I was

203
00:09:37,430 --> 00:09:33,959
interested in UFOs when again X-Files

204
00:09:39,470 --> 00:09:37,440
and Fox News they had shows on all the

205
00:09:43,070 --> 00:09:39,480
time that you could watch with doctored

206
00:09:44,329 --> 00:09:43,080
footage autopsy exactly those are just

207
00:09:45,949 --> 00:09:44,339
fun

208
00:09:48,290 --> 00:09:45,959
um so that was kind of my entree into

209
00:09:49,790 --> 00:09:48,300
the field uh but yeah I'm not a UFO

210
00:09:52,009 --> 00:09:49,800
person per se

211
00:09:54,949 --> 00:09:52,019
um I'm actually see how would I Define

212
00:09:56,810 --> 00:09:54,959
myself uh probably I would say chain

213
00:09:57,530 --> 00:09:56,820
mailer first

214
00:09:59,630 --> 00:09:57,540
um

215
00:10:03,610 --> 00:09:59,640
because the gateway drug to all of the

216
00:10:05,389 --> 00:10:03,620
weird oh you know that's actually true

217
00:10:07,190 --> 00:10:05,399
overlapping I think you're out with

218
00:10:10,910 --> 00:10:07,200
enough renfair people to notice you're

219
00:10:14,389 --> 00:10:10,920
just about to say when we're cosplay UFO

220
00:10:16,130 --> 00:10:14,399
it's a short Journey really this is what

221
00:10:19,790 --> 00:10:16,140
Campbell was talking about when he wrote

222
00:10:24,650 --> 00:10:23,210
yes exactly and and then you return as I

223
00:10:25,970 --> 00:10:24,660
am doing right now returning to

224
00:10:29,090 --> 00:10:25,980
chainmail

225
00:10:30,530 --> 00:10:29,100
um yeah I uh I could help myself a chaos

226
00:10:32,389 --> 00:10:30,540
magician

227
00:10:34,070 --> 00:10:32,399
um I again mentioned chainmail because I

228
00:10:37,970 --> 00:10:34,080
ran my own business full-time making

229
00:10:40,910 --> 00:10:37,980
chainmail jewelry for seven years

230
00:10:42,949 --> 00:10:40,920
um also interested in social theory also

231
00:10:45,110 --> 00:10:42,959
one of the organizers for pampericon

232
00:10:47,990 --> 00:10:45,120
which is an online paranormal conference

233
00:10:49,310 --> 00:10:48,000
dedicated to diversity and anti-racist

234
00:10:50,810 --> 00:10:49,320
practices

235
00:10:52,250 --> 00:10:50,820
um I kind of do everything I used to

236
00:10:55,490 --> 00:10:52,260
think it was because I was Aquarius but

237
00:10:59,750 --> 00:10:57,590
relatable

238
00:11:02,090 --> 00:10:59,760
yeah I was listening to uh various

239
00:11:04,790 --> 00:11:02,100
episodes from your your podcast earlier

240
00:11:06,829 --> 00:11:04,800
and um I was fascinated by the range of

241
00:11:09,710 --> 00:11:06,839
subjects that you were touching on um

242
00:11:13,730 --> 00:11:09,720
your undergraduate work was in sociology

243
00:11:15,829 --> 00:11:13,740
uh if I recall correctly so you bring an

244
00:11:18,710 --> 00:11:15,839
interesting and uh well informed

245
00:11:22,069 --> 00:11:18,720
perspective to these subjects I am

246
00:11:24,410 --> 00:11:22,079
curious if you could explain to people a

247
00:11:25,910 --> 00:11:24,420
little bit about uh you described how

248
00:11:27,350 --> 00:11:25,920
you had an experience when you were

249
00:11:29,569 --> 00:11:27,360
young that sort of like

250
00:11:32,269 --> 00:11:29,579
launched you into your interest in sort

251
00:11:33,590 --> 00:11:32,279
of the the unknown uh as a broader thing

252
00:11:35,449 --> 00:11:33,600
uh would you be able to sort of just

253
00:11:36,650 --> 00:11:35,459
talk about that a little bit yeah

254
00:11:39,949 --> 00:11:36,660
absolutely

255
00:11:42,410 --> 00:11:39,959
um I was I want to say like six or seven

256
00:11:45,650 --> 00:11:42,420
and

257
00:11:48,110 --> 00:11:45,660
was on the Breezeway of my childhood

258
00:11:50,990 --> 00:11:48,120
home and was just like staring out into

259
00:11:52,910 --> 00:11:51,000
the backyard and all of a sudden

260
00:11:56,449 --> 00:11:52,920
it was like the swing set in the

261
00:12:00,650 --> 00:11:56,459
backyard had disappeared and I saw a

262
00:12:02,930 --> 00:12:00,660
human shaped white figure of white run

263
00:12:06,769 --> 00:12:02,940
across the backyard

264
00:12:08,630 --> 00:12:06,779
and it immediately got terrified and ran

265
00:12:11,150 --> 00:12:08,640
up the stairs because I don't know

266
00:12:13,730 --> 00:12:11,160
what's outside I don't know what this is

267
00:12:16,610 --> 00:12:13,740
and then a couple weeks later I was in

268
00:12:19,750 --> 00:12:16,620
the basement and I watched that same

269
00:12:23,090 --> 00:12:19,760
white kind of humanoid light figure

270
00:12:25,130 --> 00:12:23,100
again run in slow motion from the

271
00:12:26,810 --> 00:12:25,140
staircase to behind this pillar and then

272
00:12:29,269 --> 00:12:26,820
disappear

273
00:12:32,329 --> 00:12:29,279
um and and again ran upstairs and was

274
00:12:34,490 --> 00:12:32,339
terrified uh that actually sparked my

275
00:12:36,530 --> 00:12:34,500
interest in ghosts as a child because

276
00:12:38,690 --> 00:12:36,540
that was my first

277
00:12:41,030 --> 00:12:38,700
um kind of again I grew up like

278
00:12:42,949 --> 00:12:41,040
Christian so you talk about and Catholic

279
00:12:44,389 --> 00:12:42,959
you talk about ghosts and weird stuff

280
00:12:46,009 --> 00:12:44,399
but you don't necessarily talk about

281
00:12:48,710 --> 00:12:46,019
UFOs

282
00:12:50,629 --> 00:12:48,720
um but then that I think kind of duffed

283
00:12:52,550 --> 00:12:50,639
once you get into one weird thing like

284
00:12:55,370 --> 00:12:52,560
you said you get into all the others

285
00:12:59,509 --> 00:12:57,889
and what did you what did you do when

286
00:13:02,090 --> 00:12:59,519
you first interpreted that experience

287
00:13:04,670 --> 00:13:02,100
what how did you make sense of it did

288
00:13:07,069 --> 00:13:04,680
you uh go to your family did you talk to

289
00:13:09,590 --> 00:13:07,079
your peers or did you just hold it to

290
00:13:12,710 --> 00:13:09,600
yourself that's a good question I I

291
00:13:15,290 --> 00:13:12,720
mostly kept it to myself and then then

292
00:13:17,810 --> 00:13:15,300
saw stuff like oh ghosts maybe that's

293
00:13:19,490 --> 00:13:17,820
the thing that I saw

294
00:13:22,250 --> 00:13:19,500
um again that was my frame of reference

295
00:13:25,850 --> 00:13:22,260
it wasn't until I was hanging out with

296
00:13:27,889 --> 00:13:25,860
um liminal Earth they do wufo Wednesdays

297
00:13:30,290 --> 00:13:27,899
um and Garrett was like What if that was

298
00:13:31,490 --> 00:13:30,300
an ultra terrestrial that blew my mind

299
00:13:33,650 --> 00:13:31,500
because right like it's like you

300
00:13:35,810 --> 00:13:33,660
contextualize these things it's like oh

301
00:13:37,550 --> 00:13:35,820
wait what if this like white figure of

302
00:13:43,790 --> 00:13:37,560
light isn't a ghost but it's something

303
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,269
incredible

304
00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:48,710
this is something I'm super fascinated

305
00:13:53,150 --> 00:13:51,360
by which is how uh these experiences can

306
00:13:54,530 --> 00:13:53,160
be nearly Universal but we all assign

307
00:13:56,329 --> 00:13:54,540
different kind of terminologies and

308
00:13:58,250 --> 00:13:56,339
nomenclature to them based on our

309
00:14:01,370 --> 00:13:58,260
context our upbringing our theologies

310
00:14:03,350 --> 00:14:01,380
our personal cosmologies Etc

311
00:14:05,210 --> 00:14:03,360
um I'm super curious about whose work or

312
00:14:08,269 --> 00:14:05,220
ideas have been especially formative to

313
00:14:12,170 --> 00:14:08,279
you either individuals or books or

314
00:14:13,670 --> 00:14:12,180
theories or anything like that I mean I

315
00:14:15,230 --> 00:14:13,680
I could probably just like pull the

316
00:14:18,670 --> 00:14:15,240
books off the shelf

317
00:14:21,110 --> 00:14:18,680
um just like zoom in on your bookshelf

318
00:14:22,970 --> 00:14:21,120
you want the social theory section do

319
00:14:25,009 --> 00:14:22,980
you want the feminism section

320
00:14:26,930 --> 00:14:25,019
um oh I would love to hear your like

321
00:14:30,350 --> 00:14:26,940
through the lens of feminism like

322
00:14:32,210 --> 00:14:30,360
personally I mean that again so much of

323
00:14:34,910 --> 00:14:32,220
my everything is informed by the work of

324
00:14:37,490 --> 00:14:34,920
Herbert Marcus a and Alice Miller right

325
00:14:40,009 --> 00:14:37,500
very much trauma informed also very

326
00:14:41,629 --> 00:14:40,019
informed by radical Theory

327
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:41,639
um critical theory

328
00:14:45,650 --> 00:14:43,680
how do we reinterpret the world that's

329
00:14:46,850 --> 00:14:45,660
kind of how I end up approaching most of

330
00:14:49,850 --> 00:14:46,860
these things

331
00:14:50,870 --> 00:14:49,860
um again mentioning feminism

332
00:14:52,730 --> 00:14:50,880
um

333
00:14:54,590 --> 00:14:52,740
you know I got I got hooked in in

334
00:14:56,329 --> 00:14:54,600
college right with radical feminism and

335
00:14:59,329 --> 00:14:56,339
this idea of rebuilding the world and

336
00:15:01,550 --> 00:14:59,339
and rebuilding meaning because I was

337
00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:01,560
also a teenage edgelord so of course I

338
00:15:07,129 --> 00:15:05,040
read Nietzsche in high school and and

339
00:15:10,730 --> 00:15:07,139
that was initially very formative and I

340
00:15:11,389 --> 00:15:10,740
think still informs a lot of my beliefs

341
00:15:14,569 --> 00:15:11,399
um

342
00:15:15,290 --> 00:15:14,579
uh the idea of overcoming

343
00:15:18,050 --> 00:15:15,300
um

344
00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:18,060
some of his eternal recurrent stuff

345
00:15:23,870 --> 00:15:21,360
but just now again softened by marcusa

346
00:15:26,629 --> 00:15:23,880
or this this idea of like okay what what

347
00:15:28,670 --> 00:15:26,639
can we do to break down our old systems

348
00:15:32,090 --> 00:15:28,680
of meaning and rebuild systems of

349
00:15:33,829 --> 00:15:32,100
meaning and rebuild and grow in a way

350
00:15:35,750 --> 00:15:33,839
that isn't just reproducing the same old

351
00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:35,760
oppressions

352
00:15:41,150 --> 00:15:37,680
and I think that's why also Alice Miller

353
00:15:42,590 --> 00:15:41,160
is a huge influence on my thinking and

354
00:15:45,050 --> 00:15:42,600
really just everything I do because she

355
00:15:47,810 --> 00:15:45,060
talked very fluently about trauma and

356
00:15:50,030 --> 00:15:47,820
the effects of child abuse on kids and

357
00:15:52,670 --> 00:15:50,040
on development and how we end up

358
00:15:54,769 --> 00:15:52,680
carrying forward and reproducing so many

359
00:15:55,870 --> 00:15:54,779
of those trauma Cycles as adults if we

360
00:15:58,930 --> 00:15:55,880
don't face

361
00:16:01,910 --> 00:15:58,940
the impact of that initial trauma

362
00:16:04,370 --> 00:16:01,920
I see that in the Paranormal Community I

363
00:16:05,930 --> 00:16:04,380
see you know those impacts in the UFO

364
00:16:07,250 --> 00:16:05,940
Community

365
00:16:09,470 --> 00:16:07,260
um if they're everywhere in the UFO

366
00:16:11,990 --> 00:16:09,480
community

367
00:16:15,370 --> 00:16:12,000
it's okay this is kind of a UFO show for

368
00:16:18,590 --> 00:16:15,380
people that hate UFOs so so great right

369
00:16:20,990 --> 00:16:18,600
so it's okay we can talk about the the

370
00:16:22,329 --> 00:16:21,000
uh pandemic of incredible trauma in the

371
00:16:25,850 --> 00:16:22,339
UFO Community

372
00:16:28,250 --> 00:16:25,860
like there's a lot going on right so

373
00:16:30,350 --> 00:16:28,260
many people are carrying so much just

374
00:16:32,689 --> 00:16:30,360
right in front of them and just expect

375
00:16:34,430 --> 00:16:32,699
everybody to carry that for them and

376
00:16:35,569 --> 00:16:34,440
that I think it's a little problematic

377
00:16:37,850 --> 00:16:35,579
there's a different again I think

378
00:16:40,430 --> 00:16:37,860
there's incredible power in Sharing

379
00:16:42,470 --> 00:16:40,440
stories and I mean that's another

380
00:16:44,269 --> 00:16:42,480
feminist thing the idea of qualitative

381
00:16:46,610 --> 00:16:44,279
research of getting in-depth interviews

382
00:16:49,129 --> 00:16:46,620
with people again also anthropologically

383
00:16:51,290 --> 00:16:49,139
very important and also

384
00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:51,300
some people really just need a therapist

385
00:16:55,790 --> 00:16:52,980
and they don't need to be telling the

386
00:16:57,710 --> 00:16:55,800
public at large what is going on like we

387
00:16:59,269 --> 00:16:57,720
are not qualified to handle that that's

388
00:17:03,230 --> 00:16:59,279
why they're a therapeutic practitioners

389
00:17:06,650 --> 00:17:03,240
with very specific skills who do that

390
00:17:09,289 --> 00:17:06,660
um that's my soapbox number one for the

391
00:17:12,829 --> 00:17:09,299
night well heated and very much agreed

392
00:17:16,610 --> 00:17:12,839
with thank you I'm glad yeah I would

393
00:17:19,309 --> 00:17:16,620
Point people to your episode with uh

394
00:17:22,010 --> 00:17:19,319
Erica Lukes that you spoke to her and

395
00:17:25,130 --> 00:17:22,020
you have a fantastic conversation about

396
00:17:27,230 --> 00:17:25,140
that kind of thing about how the culture

397
00:17:29,289 --> 00:17:27,240
in at least at least Eric is talking

398
00:17:33,169 --> 00:17:29,299
about in the UFO Community specifically

399
00:17:35,810 --> 00:17:33,179
there is sort of like a continuation of

400
00:17:37,310 --> 00:17:35,820
you know kind of the kinds of things

401
00:17:39,610 --> 00:17:37,320
that we need to be calling out more

402
00:17:42,350 --> 00:17:39,620
actively these days you know the

403
00:17:46,010 --> 00:17:42,360
patriarchal Style

404
00:17:48,890 --> 00:17:46,020
sexism and sort of old boys club and all

405
00:17:53,270 --> 00:17:48,900
this stuff and when you don't bring it

406
00:17:56,330 --> 00:17:53,280
up then you sort of participate in the

407
00:17:57,110 --> 00:17:56,340
um Injustice and uh and Leah you know

408
00:17:58,909 --> 00:17:57,120
you've

409
00:18:00,950 --> 00:17:58,919
experienced a lot of this starting to

410
00:18:02,750 --> 00:18:00,960
show up and you've been sort of a moral

411
00:18:06,230 --> 00:18:02,760
inspiration for this show certainly with

412
00:18:08,810 --> 00:18:06,240
your outspokenness to call out when

413
00:18:10,730 --> 00:18:08,820
people are Bad actors and it's very hard

414
00:18:12,110 --> 00:18:10,740
to do that in this community especially

415
00:18:14,710 --> 00:18:12,120
when there's such a

416
00:18:16,970 --> 00:18:14,720
strength and sort of the the

417
00:18:18,470 --> 00:18:16,980
oppression has brought people sort of

418
00:18:21,230 --> 00:18:18,480
together in a way where the immune

419
00:18:23,570 --> 00:18:21,240
system response is so vicious

420
00:18:25,250 --> 00:18:23,580
um you know yeah

421
00:18:29,090 --> 00:18:25,260
I guess Leah's just wondering if you

422
00:18:31,549 --> 00:18:29,100
could uh yes yes

423
00:18:32,930 --> 00:18:31,559
um yeah so I mean Vanessa when I started

424
00:18:35,090 --> 00:18:32,940
ins

425
00:18:36,650 --> 00:18:35,100
um with the nerd heard here the entire

426
00:18:38,270 --> 00:18:36,660
point was really to try to elevate the

427
00:18:40,549 --> 00:18:38,280
conversation based on what I was hearing

428
00:18:42,049 --> 00:18:40,559
in Twitter spaces and sort of commonly I

429
00:18:43,789 --> 00:18:42,059
was like this is kind of entertaining

430
00:18:45,950 --> 00:18:43,799
for me let's sit around a campfire and

431
00:18:47,390 --> 00:18:45,960
swap stories perspective but let's try

432
00:18:49,610 --> 00:18:47,400
to bring a little bit more intellectual

433
00:18:51,049 --> 00:18:49,620
rigor to discussions about this subject

434
00:18:53,510 --> 00:18:51,059
without

435
00:18:56,029 --> 00:18:53,520
um you know what I will say is like I If

436
00:18:59,450 --> 00:18:56,039
on a spectrum of like skeptical to woo

437
00:19:01,250 --> 00:18:59,460
I'm like off-screen like like I have

438
00:19:01,850 --> 00:19:01,260
deep deep woo

439
00:19:03,590 --> 00:19:01,860
um

440
00:19:06,230 --> 00:19:03,600
and I'm increasingly probably more open

441
00:19:08,330 --> 00:19:06,240
about this than I was initially

442
00:19:10,010 --> 00:19:08,340
um but but I say this because uh the

443
00:19:11,690 --> 00:19:10,020
entire purpose of this show is like good

444
00:19:13,310 --> 00:19:11,700
faith conversation right it's not to

445
00:19:14,690 --> 00:19:13,320
actually reach any meaningful conclusion

446
00:19:16,490 --> 00:19:14,700
but it's to engage in good faith

447
00:19:19,190 --> 00:19:16,500
dialogue and there is an incredible

448
00:19:21,049 --> 00:19:19,200
dearth of good faith dialogue in the UFO

449
00:19:23,450 --> 00:19:21,059
community and I think a lot of it ties

450
00:19:25,130 --> 00:19:23,460
to the fact that pretty much a large

451
00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:25,140
portion of the participants in this

452
00:19:28,610 --> 00:19:26,880
community have enormous ego

453
00:19:30,230 --> 00:19:28,620
identification with the subject and

454
00:19:33,289 --> 00:19:30,240
therefore any kind of pushback or

455
00:19:35,150 --> 00:19:33,299
criticism even if grounded in good faith

456
00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:35,160
um is perceived of as a direct personal

457
00:19:39,650 --> 00:19:36,720
attack

458
00:19:41,750 --> 00:19:39,660
um and it uh as a result and I mean you

459
00:19:43,610 --> 00:19:41,760
find like this sort of like

460
00:19:45,289 --> 00:19:43,620
um ego identity I mean you find it like

461
00:19:47,150 --> 00:19:45,299
people who are really into like football

462
00:19:49,850 --> 00:19:47,160
if you insult the Eagles they're gonna

463
00:19:51,770 --> 00:19:49,860
have like a stroke same kind of thing

464
00:19:53,150 --> 00:19:51,780
um but we're talking about ufology and I

465
00:19:55,430 --> 00:19:53,160
think the other thing of course is that

466
00:19:56,630 --> 00:19:55,440
because it can be a taboo or stigmatized

467
00:19:58,310 --> 00:19:56,640
subject

468
00:19:59,990 --> 00:19:58,320
um I I tend to see it through the lens

469
00:20:02,270 --> 00:20:00,000
of spiritual emergence which to me is

470
00:20:03,590 --> 00:20:02,280
not a tabooster or stigmatized subject I

471
00:20:05,990 --> 00:20:03,600
think spiritual emergence is a very

472
00:20:07,610 --> 00:20:06,000
common thing but ufology is sort of this

473
00:20:08,570 --> 00:20:07,620
like very particular niche in the

474
00:20:10,310 --> 00:20:08,580
Spectrum

475
00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:10,320
and we get kind of what you were talking

476
00:20:14,510 --> 00:20:11,520
about which is to get people that are

477
00:20:16,130 --> 00:20:14,520
basically creating these Echo Chambers

478
00:20:17,750 --> 00:20:16,140
um where they're basically just drinking

479
00:20:19,610 --> 00:20:17,760
each other's Kool-Aid

480
00:20:21,049 --> 00:20:19,620
um there's a lot of mental illness that

481
00:20:22,730 --> 00:20:21,059
doesn't mean everyone's mental mentally

482
00:20:24,529 --> 00:20:22,740
ill that doesn't mean to I'm not meaning

483
00:20:26,750 --> 00:20:24,539
to confer value judgment on mental

484
00:20:29,630 --> 00:20:26,760
illness or anything but you get these

485
00:20:32,470 --> 00:20:29,640
these Echo Chambers where um as long as

486
00:20:34,610 --> 00:20:32,480
ufology comes first any other

487
00:20:37,610 --> 00:20:34,620
reprehensible or disgusting Viewpoint

488
00:20:40,250 --> 00:20:37,620
winds up completely excused or pushed

489
00:20:43,850 --> 00:20:40,260
aside you can you can literally say and

490
00:20:46,430 --> 00:20:43,860
vocalize and uh provocate some of the

491
00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:46,440
actual worst conceivable opinions known

492
00:20:50,450 --> 00:20:48,480
to humankind short of actually doing

493
00:20:54,049 --> 00:20:50,460
physical violence but as long as you're

494
00:20:57,230 --> 00:20:54,059
like full tilt UFO guy it's all good no

495
00:20:58,930 --> 00:20:57,240
problem I um it's gross and I have no

496
00:21:02,450 --> 00:20:58,940
problem saying that it is gross as hell

497
00:21:04,490 --> 00:21:02,460
it's foul it's absolutely foul and it

498
00:21:06,110 --> 00:21:04,500
reminds me a lot and I bring this up a

499
00:21:08,390 --> 00:21:06,120
lot so I apologize to anyone who's heard

500
00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:08,400
me make this comparison before but I

501
00:21:12,830 --> 00:21:10,080
used to take improv classes in Chicago

502
00:21:16,730 --> 00:21:12,840
because I was selling jewelry in person

503
00:21:18,350 --> 00:21:16,740
at Art Fair and I'm introverted uh very

504
00:21:20,270 --> 00:21:18,360
shy major

505
00:21:21,770 --> 00:21:20,280
um social anxiety and I just basically

506
00:21:23,390 --> 00:21:21,780
wanted to Short Circuit that out of my

507
00:21:26,330 --> 00:21:23,400
system so I took improv classes very

508
00:21:28,669 --> 00:21:26,340
smart thank you I mean that one of the

509
00:21:31,490 --> 00:21:28,679
things about ADHD and Trauma is I'm like

510
00:21:32,570 --> 00:21:31,500
I'm not normal how can I fit in a little

511
00:21:34,490 --> 00:21:32,580
better

512
00:21:36,110 --> 00:21:34,500
yep right you're attention to the lake

513
00:21:39,950 --> 00:21:36,120
yeah to the executive dysfunction Queen

514
00:21:41,870 --> 00:21:39,960
so I get it oh I'd like that I'm in good

515
00:21:44,169 --> 00:21:41,880
company

516
00:21:48,649 --> 00:21:44,179
um but anyway the Chicago improv scene

517
00:21:50,810 --> 00:21:48,659
it it was a lot of people from you know

518
00:21:53,149 --> 00:21:50,820
different like other Midwestern states

519
00:21:54,890 --> 00:21:53,159
who are very funny in college and wanted

520
00:21:56,690 --> 00:21:54,900
to come to Chicago because they thought

521
00:21:59,029 --> 00:21:56,700
that there was a series of steps that

522
00:22:01,490 --> 00:21:59,039
they could follow in order to get on SNL

523
00:22:03,169 --> 00:22:01,500
someday to get to Second City and then

524
00:22:05,450 --> 00:22:03,179
once you get to Second City it's like

525
00:22:07,970 --> 00:22:05,460
straight onto SNL that's it exactly

526
00:22:11,090 --> 00:22:07,980
right right you you do the classes at i

527
00:22:13,370 --> 00:22:11,100
o you get on a Herald team you get to be

528
00:22:16,010 --> 00:22:13,380
a part of the Showcase and then whoever

529
00:22:17,870 --> 00:22:16,020
of the executive team picks you uh from

530
00:22:20,810 --> 00:22:17,880
the show and and you know bestows this

531
00:22:23,210 --> 00:22:20,820
magic on you and puts you on SNL so so

532
00:22:26,090 --> 00:22:23,220
you had all of these people

533
00:22:29,570 --> 00:22:26,100
smiling and glad handing and also

534
00:22:31,789 --> 00:22:29,580
excusing in some cases abusive Behavior

535
00:22:34,669 --> 00:22:31,799
not just inappropriate abusive Behavior

536
00:22:37,370 --> 00:22:34,679
because there was this idea that okay

537
00:22:41,510 --> 00:22:37,380
well we can't say anything because what

538
00:22:42,890 --> 00:22:41,520
if he is famous first and then we want

539
00:22:45,169 --> 00:22:42,900
to write his coattails but if we call

540
00:22:47,570 --> 00:22:45,179
out the fact that he was like terrible

541
00:22:49,250 --> 00:22:47,580
to his last three ex-girlfriends oh

542
00:22:53,570 --> 00:22:49,260
we're gonna get ostracized and we can't

543
00:22:55,130 --> 00:22:53,580
do that and that similar mentality I

544
00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:55,140
mean I I feel like I've seen that in a

545
00:22:59,510 --> 00:22:57,120
lot of like nerd communities and I

546
00:23:02,830 --> 00:22:59,520
consider UFOs a nerd Community it is

547
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:02,840
that it's not the jocks let me be clear

548
00:23:10,190 --> 00:23:06,000
not at all

549
00:23:11,529 --> 00:23:10,200
some pretend to be Bros but come on I

550
00:23:14,270 --> 00:23:11,539
hate sports

551
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:14,280
right great

552
00:23:19,250 --> 00:23:17,039
um and it's that it's you there there

553
00:23:22,070 --> 00:23:19,260
are these people that are claiming to

554
00:23:24,169 --> 00:23:22,080
have this secret knowledge and there are

555
00:23:26,090 --> 00:23:24,179
a lot of other people who want access to

556
00:23:28,990 --> 00:23:26,100
this secret knowledge and so they are

557
00:23:32,090 --> 00:23:29,000
willing to look past and forgive again

558
00:23:36,289 --> 00:23:32,100
reprehensible things again alignment

559
00:23:38,510 --> 00:23:36,299
with a fascist elements proto-fascist

560
00:23:41,149 --> 00:23:38,520
elements in our society because

561
00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:41,159
disclosure because we want we want to

562
00:23:45,950 --> 00:23:42,720
believe we want access to this knowledge

563
00:23:47,870 --> 00:23:45,960
so okay so he's kind of a racist right

564
00:23:50,450 --> 00:23:47,880
oh okay so she claims to be The

565
00:23:51,890 --> 00:23:50,460
Reincarnation of a Nazi I mean but they

566
00:23:54,770 --> 00:23:51,900
have secret information about the

567
00:23:57,350 --> 00:23:54,780
breeding programs and the the secret

568
00:24:00,289 --> 00:23:57,360
um time travel uh soldiers on the moon

569
00:24:04,549 --> 00:24:00,299
so so we're not going to say anything

570
00:24:06,830 --> 00:24:04,559
again My Philosophy with the Paranormal

571
00:24:08,870 --> 00:24:06,840
is the same with everything humans first

572
00:24:12,710 --> 00:24:08,880
if you are not centering Human

573
00:24:15,230 --> 00:24:12,720
Experience in this lived reality with

574
00:24:16,669 --> 00:24:15,240
these oppressive social structures I do

575
00:24:18,110 --> 00:24:16,679
not care what you have to say about the

576
00:24:19,610 --> 00:24:18,120
occult I don't care what you have to say

577
00:24:20,570 --> 00:24:19,620
about the Paranormal and I certainly

578
00:24:23,990 --> 00:24:20,580
don't care what you have to say about

579
00:24:26,570 --> 00:24:24,000
UFOs period yes yes yes yes this this

580
00:24:28,430 --> 00:24:26,580
reminds me of outage

581
00:24:29,930 --> 00:24:28,440
before Enlightenment you chop out and

582
00:24:31,970 --> 00:24:29,940
carry water after Enlightenment you chop

583
00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:31,980
it and carry water Enlightenment or

584
00:24:36,230 --> 00:24:34,320
development or personal growth or

585
00:24:38,510 --> 00:24:36,240
exploration or occult practice or

586
00:24:40,190 --> 00:24:38,520
whatever else is only so good as you are

587
00:24:43,370 --> 00:24:40,200
able to bring the gleanings of that

588
00:24:45,230 --> 00:24:43,380
practice into the world and if not make

589
00:24:46,789 --> 00:24:45,240
the world better at least help mitigate

590
00:24:49,730 --> 00:24:46,799
the suffering that is present in the

591
00:24:52,370 --> 00:24:49,740
world exactly exactly like if you don't

592
00:24:56,090 --> 00:24:52,380
feel again I don't necessarily believe

593
00:24:58,430 --> 00:24:56,100
in anything but if you don't have some

594
00:25:00,830 --> 00:24:58,440
like don't feel like a moral or ethical

595
00:25:02,810 --> 00:25:00,840
obligation to other humans that you've

596
00:25:04,669 --> 00:25:02,820
missed the point right you've completely

597
00:25:06,770 --> 00:25:04,679
missed the point

598
00:25:09,230 --> 00:25:06,780
um and it's it's sad it's sad and it's

599
00:25:13,490 --> 00:25:09,240
gross what I see in all of these

600
00:25:15,289 --> 00:25:13,500
um nerdy communities yes

601
00:25:19,250 --> 00:25:15,299
yes

602
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:19,260
and also to this other point like the

603
00:25:24,890 --> 00:25:22,559
the ego attachment to this belief system

604
00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:24,900
like to the belief in UFOs it's the same

605
00:25:28,190 --> 00:25:26,880
as people who get really immersed in fan

606
00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:28,200
culture

607
00:25:33,950 --> 00:25:29,520
um you know I have friends who are into

608
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:33,960
K-pop DC Universe K-pop manga yes all of

609
00:25:39,470 --> 00:25:36,480
it right like don't disc Cowboy Bebop or

610
00:25:41,750 --> 00:25:39,480
we're gonna come to blows right

611
00:25:44,930 --> 00:25:41,760
um it's that that kind of sensibility

612
00:25:46,669 --> 00:25:44,940
and like I I find it very strange when

613
00:25:48,470 --> 00:25:46,679
people get very defensive of things that

614
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:48,480
they like even things that they believe

615
00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:51,360
because like why are you so attached to

616
00:25:55,370 --> 00:25:52,880
these things

617
00:25:57,230 --> 00:25:55,380
why could you handle any criticism or

618
00:26:00,470 --> 00:25:57,240
just a difference I was gonna say it

619
00:26:03,049 --> 00:26:00,480
also takes on this almost extreme binary

620
00:26:05,210 --> 00:26:03,059
kind of thinking where

621
00:26:07,490 --> 00:26:05,220
like the only way to like something is

622
00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:07,500
to categorically like and endorse every

623
00:26:12,590 --> 00:26:10,320
conceivable facet of it and like I I am

624
00:26:15,049 --> 00:26:12,600
look I am like huge into Art Bell who is

625
00:26:16,370 --> 00:26:15,059
probably a huge problematic fave in so

626
00:26:17,570 --> 00:26:16,380
many different ways not the least of

627
00:26:19,610 --> 00:26:17,580
which because he basically laid the

628
00:26:21,169 --> 00:26:19,620
foundation upon which Alex Jones and all

629
00:26:23,750 --> 00:26:21,179
these other chocolates have built their

630
00:26:26,570 --> 00:26:23,760
Empires and like I love Art Bell but

631
00:26:31,250 --> 00:26:29,149
like creep to women super weird didn't

632
00:26:32,690 --> 00:26:31,260
have good politics said a lot of not

633
00:26:34,549 --> 00:26:32,700
some good not great stuff that would

634
00:26:36,710 --> 00:26:34,559
probably get him canceled today

635
00:26:37,909 --> 00:26:36,720
um and like we can we're grown-ups with

636
00:26:39,590 --> 00:26:37,919
functioning intellects we can hold

637
00:26:41,750 --> 00:26:39,600
multiple viewpoints at the same time in

638
00:26:43,669 --> 00:26:41,760
fact we may even be able to hold complex

639
00:26:45,529 --> 00:26:43,679
and sophisticated viewpoints that we may

640
00:26:48,110 --> 00:26:45,539
not even agree with but can entertain

641
00:26:50,690 --> 00:26:48,120
right and instead right it becomes this

642
00:26:53,210 --> 00:26:50,700
like extremely narrow binary way of

643
00:26:54,830 --> 00:26:53,220
thinking that either you absolutely like

644
00:26:56,570 --> 00:26:54,840
every single thing that is part and

645
00:26:59,510 --> 00:26:56,580
parcel to whatever the subject is and if

646
00:27:02,630 --> 00:26:59,520
you don't you are the enemy the the

647
00:27:05,750 --> 00:27:02,640
enemy the enemy I mean again I have a

648
00:27:08,269 --> 00:27:05,760
friend who is into K-pop she's also

649
00:27:11,690 --> 00:27:08,279
black and there are other black K-pop

650
00:27:16,370 --> 00:27:11,700
fans who have dealt with doxing and just

651
00:27:19,430 --> 00:27:16,380
a barrage of racist hate for like not

652
00:27:23,149 --> 00:27:19,440
liking the right albums in the right

653
00:27:25,789 --> 00:27:23,159
order right it's like like it's that

654
00:27:27,890 --> 00:27:25,799
party line thinking

655
00:27:29,690 --> 00:27:27,900
um again systems thinker it's like kind

656
00:27:31,310 --> 00:27:29,700
of like you see even if it's not like

657
00:27:33,049 --> 00:27:31,320
people who align with fascists it's the

658
00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:33,059
same kind of fascistic thinking of like

659
00:27:36,649 --> 00:27:35,039
we all have a party line we all have to

660
00:27:38,090 --> 00:27:36,659
follow the party line and if you don't

661
00:27:40,430 --> 00:27:38,100
we're going to attack you and we're

662
00:27:43,789 --> 00:27:40,440
going to criticize you and again not

663
00:27:46,490 --> 00:27:43,799
over like racist sexist homophobic

664
00:27:48,950 --> 00:27:46,500
horrible things but you don't believe

665
00:27:52,730 --> 00:27:48,960
UFOs are like nuts and bolts craft in

666
00:27:56,090 --> 00:27:52,740
the sky off of your head yep yeah yes

667
00:27:58,549 --> 00:27:56,100
you need to tow the party line yes so I

668
00:28:00,590 --> 00:27:58,559
would oh go ahead Lewis sorry I was

669
00:28:03,049 --> 00:28:00,600
gonna ask what's the um

670
00:28:06,470 --> 00:28:03,059
the the trauma

671
00:28:08,750 --> 00:28:06,480
how does that actually manifest

672
00:28:11,810 --> 00:28:08,760
um so I actually think part of it

673
00:28:14,330 --> 00:28:11,820
manifests in the inability slash

674
00:28:17,029 --> 00:28:14,340
unwillingness to call out abusers in the

675
00:28:19,730 --> 00:28:17,039
field so there are a couple things

676
00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:19,740
um again from doing pampericon people

677
00:28:23,990 --> 00:28:22,080
have started telling me things

678
00:28:26,029 --> 00:28:24,000
um and so there are people in in

679
00:28:28,610 --> 00:28:26,039
paranormal Community who are not great

680
00:28:31,010 --> 00:28:28,620
who have huge followings

681
00:28:33,649 --> 00:28:31,020
um and nobody says anything because then

682
00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:33,659
they know they're just gonna get hate

683
00:28:38,390 --> 00:28:36,960
from that the supporters of those people

684
00:28:39,710 --> 00:28:38,400
um and they're not going to be beliefs

685
00:28:41,450 --> 00:28:39,720
and they're going to lose whatever

686
00:28:44,570 --> 00:28:41,460
following they have

687
00:28:47,090 --> 00:28:44,580
so there is this expectation of

688
00:28:49,250 --> 00:28:47,100
again it kind of reminds me of like an

689
00:28:50,870 --> 00:28:49,260
alcoholic family where none we all know

690
00:28:52,610 --> 00:28:50,880
what's going on at home but we all have

691
00:28:54,110 --> 00:28:52,620
a brave face outside no one's going to

692
00:28:56,930 --> 00:28:54,120
talk about it

693
00:28:59,090 --> 00:28:56,940
um it's constantly presenting this image

694
00:29:02,090 --> 00:28:59,100
um and so I I feel like in that way like

695
00:29:03,470 --> 00:29:02,100
people don't call out abusers also when

696
00:29:05,810 --> 00:29:03,480
people feel like they're in the good

697
00:29:08,210 --> 00:29:05,820
graces of a narcissist or a bully

698
00:29:11,029 --> 00:29:08,220
there's like a weird power they feel

699
00:29:13,070 --> 00:29:11,039
from that it's like without realizing

700
00:29:18,169 --> 00:29:13,080
this unfold in the UFO community in real

701
00:29:20,269 --> 00:29:18,179
time right now oh really oh yes oh yes

702
00:29:21,669 --> 00:29:20,279
and we can back Channel about that

703
00:29:24,649 --> 00:29:21,679
anyway sorry

704
00:29:26,389 --> 00:29:24,659
but what what is like the actual

705
00:29:29,930 --> 00:29:26,399
um like I mean you you mentioned your

706
00:29:31,610 --> 00:29:29,940
experience with the white Phantom figure

707
00:29:34,370 --> 00:29:31,620
um but can you think of any kind of

708
00:29:37,549 --> 00:29:34,380
images which manifest uh because of

709
00:29:39,769 --> 00:29:37,559
trauma or because of abuse

710
00:29:41,750 --> 00:29:39,779
so I personally think that a lot of

711
00:29:44,450 --> 00:29:41,760
abduction narratives are actually

712
00:29:46,610 --> 00:29:44,460
childhood sexual abuse stories that have

713
00:29:49,130 --> 00:29:46,620
gotten filtered in a way that a person

714
00:29:49,789 --> 00:29:49,140
can actually approach them

715
00:29:52,070 --> 00:29:49,799
um

716
00:29:54,409 --> 00:29:52,080
maybe not all of them but I've certainly

717
00:29:56,269 --> 00:29:54,419
heard a few that kind of hit like the

718
00:29:59,870 --> 00:29:56,279
trauma marks

719
00:30:02,269 --> 00:30:01,669
right yeah

720
00:30:04,909 --> 00:30:02,279
um

721
00:30:08,090 --> 00:30:04,919
yeah uh

722
00:30:10,549 --> 00:30:08,100
and also like so I mean Jack Brewer

723
00:30:13,310 --> 00:30:10,559
talks about how even just the experience

724
00:30:15,470 --> 00:30:13,320
of something paranormal is often

725
00:30:18,110 --> 00:30:15,480
associated with trauma

726
00:30:20,149 --> 00:30:18,120
um because you are jolted out of your

727
00:30:22,430 --> 00:30:20,159
reality and and especially like I saw

728
00:30:24,889 --> 00:30:22,440
this as a kid and I'm just like and

729
00:30:27,769 --> 00:30:24,899
again this swing set also disappeared

730
00:30:29,450 --> 00:30:27,779
like multiple things of unreality were

731
00:30:31,070 --> 00:30:29,460
happening at once

732
00:30:33,169 --> 00:30:31,080
you know I don't even have full like

733
00:30:35,330 --> 00:30:33,179
fine motor skills yet and I'm trying to

734
00:30:37,430 --> 00:30:35,340
wrap my head around this

735
00:30:39,950 --> 00:30:37,440
um and and again it also happens with

736
00:30:43,370 --> 00:30:39,960
adults who have experiences of lights in

737
00:30:46,010 --> 00:30:43,380
the sky or or other kind of visions

738
00:30:48,610 --> 00:30:46,020
um so that alone is traumatic but again

739
00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:48,620
I also think that

740
00:30:52,909 --> 00:30:51,840
like the ability to kind of see these

741
00:30:55,990 --> 00:30:52,919
things

742
00:30:58,549 --> 00:30:56,000
like requires a certain amount of

743
00:31:01,250 --> 00:30:58,559
dissociation from normal reality which

744
00:31:03,230 --> 00:31:01,260
is also a result of trauma and how to

745
00:31:07,250 --> 00:31:03,240
survive trauma

746
00:31:10,190 --> 00:31:07,260
um you know would would I have seen like

747
00:31:11,990 --> 00:31:10,200
a white figure in my backyard if I

748
00:31:14,810 --> 00:31:12,000
wasn't raised by like mentally unstable

749
00:31:17,930 --> 00:31:14,820
people maybe not you know was that

750
00:31:19,370 --> 00:31:17,940
hallucination maybe like those are

751
00:31:21,169 --> 00:31:19,380
things I can't answer I'm willing to

752
00:31:24,049 --> 00:31:21,179
entertain but things don't necessarily

753
00:31:25,610 --> 00:31:24,059
mean what we see or initially interpret

754
00:31:26,149 --> 00:31:25,620
them as

755
00:31:31,190 --> 00:31:26,159
um

756
00:31:33,409 --> 00:31:31,200
to again with my sociology background I

757
00:31:36,289 --> 00:31:33,419
see it in the way that social

758
00:31:37,730 --> 00:31:36,299
stories get formed around all these

759
00:31:40,010 --> 00:31:37,740
different narratives and again what we

760
00:31:41,330 --> 00:31:40,020
put up with and and

761
00:31:45,769 --> 00:31:41,340
um

762
00:31:46,750 --> 00:31:45,779
only thing that explains not calling out

763
00:31:50,269 --> 00:31:46,760
abuse

764
00:31:51,529 --> 00:31:50,279
to me like like it's so clear and again

765
00:31:54,529 --> 00:31:51,539
especially in the UFO these like

766
00:31:56,269 --> 00:31:54,539
Paragons of the field that we know

767
00:31:58,130 --> 00:31:56,279
they've Abused women or in some cases

768
00:31:59,810 --> 00:31:58,140
they recorded their hypnosis sessions

769
00:32:01,549 --> 00:31:59,820
with women that they were actively

770
00:32:04,750 --> 00:32:01,559
abusing

771
00:32:08,269 --> 00:32:04,760
and there isn't public outcry

772
00:32:11,149 --> 00:32:08,279
seriously like again it goes back to

773
00:32:14,750 --> 00:32:11,159
this idea that the youth the UFO is a

774
00:32:17,149 --> 00:32:14,760
subject supersedes any other conceivable

775
00:32:19,909 --> 00:32:17,159
thing right

776
00:32:21,889 --> 00:32:19,919
right and what's unfortunate too is that

777
00:32:24,470 --> 00:32:21,899
like so many of these things it it

778
00:32:26,210 --> 00:32:24,480
becomes like again it becomes like a

779
00:32:27,529 --> 00:32:26,220
cult right where first you start out and

780
00:32:30,110 --> 00:32:27,539
you're like okay people are having

781
00:32:31,669 --> 00:32:30,120
abduction stories all right well okay

782
00:32:34,789 --> 00:32:31,679
actually they're being abducted and used

783
00:32:36,590 --> 00:32:34,799
for breeding program like oh really okay

784
00:32:39,049 --> 00:32:36,600
uh oh and then there are like hybrid

785
00:32:41,210 --> 00:32:39,059
children and then over there are also

786
00:32:43,850 --> 00:32:41,220
Time Travelers and children who are

787
00:32:45,049 --> 00:32:43,860
de-aged it and then you go farther and

788
00:32:46,610 --> 00:32:45,059
farther and farther and at some point

789
00:32:50,269 --> 00:32:46,620
you have to be like do you really think

790
00:32:52,250 --> 00:32:50,279
this person has truth like at what point

791
00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:52,260
do you just say like I'm out or is it

792
00:32:55,430 --> 00:32:54,000
just sunk cost fallacy the whole way and

793
00:32:58,549 --> 00:32:55,440
you're just like all right well I guess

794
00:33:01,490 --> 00:32:58,559
I believe in time traveling Martian uh

795
00:33:03,470 --> 00:33:01,500
super soldiers all right like and and

796
00:33:05,090 --> 00:33:03,480
yeah sure but but it's okay if this guy

797
00:33:07,970 --> 00:33:05,100
actually like abused this woman and

798
00:33:10,970 --> 00:33:07,980
stole her underwear

799
00:33:15,350 --> 00:33:13,009
it's I think the other thing too that's

800
00:33:18,169 --> 00:33:15,360
worth noting um again I I tend to be

801
00:33:20,269 --> 00:33:18,179
very colored by uh myth and archetype

802
00:33:23,029 --> 00:33:20,279
and spiritual emergence and and that

803
00:33:26,870 --> 00:33:23,039
sort of I guess like religious spiritual

804
00:33:29,630 --> 00:33:26,880
lens but I mean even just to experience

805
00:33:32,029 --> 00:33:29,640
um ontological disruption is in and of

806
00:33:33,529 --> 00:33:32,039
itself de facto traumatic right there

807
00:33:36,409 --> 00:33:33,539
doesn't actually have to be a preceding

808
00:33:38,269 --> 00:33:36,419
trauma event just to like

809
00:33:40,730 --> 00:33:38,279
um I think of experiences of ego

810
00:33:42,110 --> 00:33:40,740
dissolution where if you're unprepared

811
00:33:43,430 --> 00:33:42,120
for these kinds of events which can

812
00:33:44,570 --> 00:33:43,440
happen spontaneously like without

813
00:33:46,970 --> 00:33:44,580
deliberate inducement without

814
00:33:49,130 --> 00:33:46,980
psychedelics they can just happen

815
00:33:50,810 --> 00:33:49,140
Um this can be extraordinarily traumatic

816
00:33:53,149 --> 00:33:50,820
experiences for people if they're

817
00:33:54,590 --> 00:33:53,159
ill-equipped or unprepared to sort of

818
00:33:56,690 --> 00:33:54,600
contextualize and integrate what

819
00:33:57,710 --> 00:33:56,700
happened to them right um one of the

820
00:34:00,049 --> 00:33:57,720
things I've mentioned on this show

821
00:34:02,330 --> 00:34:00,059
before is the most probable place in

822
00:34:04,370 --> 00:34:02,340
Modern Life to experience like ego

823
00:34:06,409 --> 00:34:04,380
dissolution or a spiritual emergency as

824
00:34:08,329 --> 00:34:06,419
an airport which is really interesting

825
00:34:10,430 --> 00:34:08,339
right because it's such an emotionally

826
00:34:12,050 --> 00:34:10,440
loaded place and it's like so liminal

827
00:34:13,250 --> 00:34:12,060
and like just so associative to be in

828
00:34:14,030 --> 00:34:13,260
already

829
00:34:15,829 --> 00:34:14,040
um

830
00:34:17,629 --> 00:34:15,839
and like people have these experiences

831
00:34:19,010 --> 00:34:17,639
and it totally screws them up right they

832
00:34:21,409 --> 00:34:19,020
have no way to integrate it they have no

833
00:34:22,849 --> 00:34:21,419
sort of grounding or way to sort of

834
00:34:24,770 --> 00:34:22,859
contextualize what's happened to them

835
00:34:26,690 --> 00:34:24,780
and so it becomes this like huge

836
00:34:28,250 --> 00:34:26,700
traumatic event that I mean honestly

837
00:34:29,990 --> 00:34:28,260
most mental health workers are not

838
00:34:32,990 --> 00:34:30,000
particularly well equipped to deal with

839
00:34:34,909 --> 00:34:33,000
it nor like spiritual guidance

840
00:34:38,210 --> 00:34:34,919
um and so instead it turns into like

841
00:34:40,010 --> 00:34:38,220
either a UFO story or it turns into like

842
00:34:42,950 --> 00:34:40,020
some sort of like

843
00:34:44,750 --> 00:34:42,960
um like massive character Schism like it

844
00:34:47,149 --> 00:34:44,760
can be sort of like transmuted into all

845
00:34:48,909 --> 00:34:47,159
these sort of subsequent uh events in

846
00:34:51,530 --> 00:34:48,919
the person's character

847
00:34:53,329 --> 00:34:51,540
absolutely again absolutely like that's

848
00:34:54,950 --> 00:34:53,339
that's the first thing that I got really

849
00:34:57,050 --> 00:34:54,960
excited about Jack Brewer's work because

850
00:34:58,550 --> 00:34:57,060
he was writing like this is a traumatic

851
00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:58,560
experience why aren't we addressing the

852
00:35:04,070 --> 00:35:01,440
trauma like again just that having that

853
00:35:06,410 --> 00:35:04,080
experience that that complete again

854
00:35:07,790 --> 00:35:06,420
dissociation for real reality right or

855
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:07,800
this material

856
00:35:12,370 --> 00:35:10,079
we're we're all taught that like this

857
00:35:15,290 --> 00:35:12,380
materiality is all that there is and and

858
00:35:17,870 --> 00:35:15,300
that you are only smart if you only

859
00:35:20,030 --> 00:35:17,880
believe in this and not no idea of like

860
00:35:22,849 --> 00:35:20,040
a mind-body connection or some other

861
00:35:25,030 --> 00:35:22,859
unknown thing out there yeah I mean so

862
00:35:27,050 --> 00:35:25,040
much of our mental health and like

863
00:35:28,910 --> 00:35:27,060
psychotherapeutic practices are

864
00:35:31,250 --> 00:35:28,920
effectively just scaffolding on the

865
00:35:33,050 --> 00:35:31,260
capitalist system right they only serve

866
00:35:34,910 --> 00:35:33,060
to make us productive workers They don't

867
00:35:37,250 --> 00:35:34,920
serve to make a spiritually integrated

868
00:35:38,990 --> 00:35:37,260
humans with like somatic and bodily

869
00:35:40,490 --> 00:35:39,000
wisdom and like fully integrated lives

870
00:35:43,010 --> 00:35:40,500
they start to make us like better at

871
00:35:44,990 --> 00:35:43,020
writing JavaScript or whatever

872
00:35:48,050 --> 00:35:45,000
um and so as a result right like you

873
00:35:51,170 --> 00:35:48,060
have you have basically this entire uh

874
00:35:53,089 --> 00:35:51,180
like the this collection of

875
00:35:54,530 --> 00:35:53,099
psychotherapeutic workers now I I had

876
00:35:56,630 --> 00:35:54,540
the good luck I worked with a yogi

877
00:35:58,849 --> 00:35:56,640
analyst for six years uh which was

878
00:36:00,290 --> 00:35:58,859
amazing right I I did not fix my anxiety

879
00:36:01,310 --> 00:36:00,300
but I got to know myself really really

880
00:36:02,030 --> 00:36:01,320
well

881
00:36:04,849 --> 00:36:02,040
um

882
00:36:06,589 --> 00:36:04,859
but like most like like even CBT like

883
00:36:09,109 --> 00:36:06,599
kind of behavioral therapy is just like

884
00:36:10,550 --> 00:36:09,119
direct applied it's to get you back to

885
00:36:12,349 --> 00:36:10,560
work and being a productive member of

886
00:36:14,210 --> 00:36:12,359
society it's not to heal your wounds

887
00:36:16,609 --> 00:36:14,220
it's not to deal with your [\h__\h] it's to

888
00:36:20,210 --> 00:36:16,619
get you writing JavaScript like and

889
00:36:22,730 --> 00:36:20,220
paying your bills on time my a former

890
00:36:26,210 --> 00:36:22,740
best friend is a psychotherapist and who

891
00:36:28,370 --> 00:36:26,220
practices CBT and she even said to me

892
00:36:31,310 --> 00:36:28,380
once like I mean we all know this

893
00:36:33,290 --> 00:36:31,320
doesn't work long term right why are you

894
00:36:35,050 --> 00:36:33,300
doing this they're putting Band-Aids on

895
00:36:37,970 --> 00:36:35,060
bullet moves here

896
00:36:40,250 --> 00:36:37,980
right right and it's like okay I get

897
00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:40,260
that it's hard to do depth work it's

898
00:36:44,690 --> 00:36:42,240
hard it's an ongoing process it never

899
00:36:46,790 --> 00:36:44,700
Super Time intensive yes right right

900
00:36:51,290 --> 00:36:46,800
it's good to take time off of work so

901
00:36:54,410 --> 00:36:51,300
you can do all of it yeah okay yes it is

902
00:36:57,790 --> 00:36:54,420
actually these are great points about uh

903
00:37:00,589 --> 00:36:57,800
trauma and uh humans sort of like

904
00:37:02,569 --> 00:37:00,599
evolutionary socialized history and

905
00:37:05,270 --> 00:37:02,579
things like that like there's a

906
00:37:09,290 --> 00:37:05,280
professor McAuley who founded founded

907
00:37:12,349 --> 00:37:09,300
cybernetics uh at MIT in the 50s and he

908
00:37:15,470 --> 00:37:12,359
talks in an interview uh with CBC News

909
00:37:18,530 --> 00:37:15,480
in I believe the 60s about how you know

910
00:37:20,990 --> 00:37:18,540
the human brain was designed by natural

911
00:37:23,150 --> 00:37:21,000
selection adaptive pressures too do

912
00:37:25,670 --> 00:37:23,160
life-sustaining activities for about 15

913
00:37:27,650 --> 00:37:25,680
hours a week and the rest of their time

914
00:37:29,210 --> 00:37:27,660
was spent prioritizing social

915
00:37:32,270 --> 00:37:29,220
relationship building within your small

916
00:37:33,530 --> 00:37:32,280
community yeah and you know he says like

917
00:37:36,050 --> 00:37:33,540
you know what we're doing right now with

918
00:37:39,109 --> 00:37:36,060
our lives is like trying to to uh race

919
00:37:40,970 --> 00:37:39,119
like a cube van in a NASCAR race we're

920
00:37:43,550 --> 00:37:40,980
just blowing up the engine you know I

921
00:37:45,890 --> 00:37:43,560
need those you know 70 years ago now so

922
00:37:49,130 --> 00:37:45,900
you know we've had this as sort of a

923
00:37:51,710 --> 00:37:49,140
presence in all of this for so long and

924
00:37:53,390 --> 00:37:51,720
the trauma piece was especially relevant

925
00:37:55,910 --> 00:37:53,400
to me because the only reason I'm here

926
00:37:58,609 --> 00:37:55,920
today is because of covid the virus

927
00:38:00,290 --> 00:37:58,619
messed up my business farming uh really

928
00:38:02,329 --> 00:38:00,300
messed with my business I had a lot of

929
00:38:04,750 --> 00:38:02,339
spare time first time in my life you

930
00:38:08,270 --> 00:38:04,760
know I'm a skepticism

931
00:38:10,190 --> 00:38:08,280
CBD uh okay yeah but uh yeah yeah no

932
00:38:13,430 --> 00:38:10,200
it's weird yeah no I'm a Weed Farmer but

933
00:38:17,089 --> 00:38:13,440
uh great it's licensed Health Canada and

934
00:38:22,130 --> 00:38:17,099
the resident plasma guy well yeah trying

935
00:38:26,750 --> 00:38:24,650
um yeah uh oh God where was I the trauma

936
00:38:28,250 --> 00:38:26,760
yes so my business was struggling and

937
00:38:29,930 --> 00:38:28,260
stuff and that was like the first time I

938
00:38:32,270 --> 00:38:29,940
even and you know materialist all this

939
00:38:34,250 --> 00:38:32,280
stuff no interest historically in

940
00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:34,260
paranormal UFO or anything and that was

941
00:38:38,510 --> 00:38:36,720
the when I saw on the news in the middle

942
00:38:40,490 --> 00:38:38,520
of the shutdown Obama was saying like

943
00:38:42,050 --> 00:38:40,500
well you know there might be things out

944
00:38:43,370 --> 00:38:42,060
there we can't understand quite what

945
00:38:44,810 --> 00:38:43,380
they are they don't you know they're

946
00:38:45,890 --> 00:38:44,820
moving weird ways and all whatever so

947
00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:45,900
I'm like what the heck's he talking

948
00:38:50,270 --> 00:38:48,000
about first time my mind opened to it in

949
00:38:53,690 --> 00:38:50,280
the middle of like a trauma experience

950
00:38:55,970 --> 00:38:53,700
and uh you know you you started playing

951
00:38:57,950 --> 00:38:55,980
paracon and stuff and uh you know and we

952
00:39:00,829 --> 00:38:57,960
sort of started this uh Community here

953
00:39:03,589 --> 00:39:00,839
it's almost like a counter Revolution to

954
00:39:05,930 --> 00:39:03,599
the mainstream culture right a protest

955
00:39:09,589 --> 00:39:05,940
and um could you talk a little bit about

956
00:39:11,690 --> 00:39:09,599
uh this the origins of pan Paragon had

957
00:39:14,270 --> 00:39:11,700
got involved and uh what led you like

958
00:39:16,849 --> 00:39:14,280
kind of from a philosophical standpoint

959
00:39:20,810 --> 00:39:16,859
too engage in that

960
00:39:25,730 --> 00:39:20,820
so um so it's funny that that response

961
00:39:27,950 --> 00:39:25,740
right the reaction like uh I so I used

962
00:39:29,569 --> 00:39:27,960
to listen to Mysterious Universe and

963
00:39:32,329 --> 00:39:29,579
then a friend of mine clued me into the

964
00:39:34,790 --> 00:39:32,339
fact that they're terrible people that

965
00:39:37,730 --> 00:39:34,800
believe terrible things and espouse you

966
00:39:40,370 --> 00:39:37,740
know pandemic anti-vaxx China is coming

967
00:39:42,530 --> 00:39:40,380
to kill us all anti-semitic anti-trans

968
00:39:45,230 --> 00:39:42,540
[\h__\h]

969
00:39:47,450 --> 00:39:45,240
the whole thing they used to keep that

970
00:39:49,490 --> 00:39:47,460
only on the paid side right where they

971
00:39:51,250 --> 00:39:49,500
would make references to clown world and

972
00:39:54,829 --> 00:39:51,260
then and then they went full mask off

973
00:39:56,390 --> 00:39:54,839
and so I started a fundraiser and it was

974
00:39:58,730 --> 00:39:56,400
just a screenshot of like Benjamin

975
00:40:01,430 --> 00:39:58,740
Grundy has blocked you on Twitter and

976
00:40:04,190 --> 00:40:01,440
that was a fundraiser for Trans lifeline

977
00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:04,200
because I again again I thought it was

978
00:40:08,630 --> 00:40:06,000
Aquarius probably just being defiant and

979
00:40:11,089 --> 00:40:08,640
having ADHD of saying like yeah I'm not

980
00:40:13,849 --> 00:40:11,099
gonna stand for this and also like I'm

981
00:40:16,910 --> 00:40:13,859
gonna atone for promo like promoting

982
00:40:18,470 --> 00:40:16,920
them and being fans of theirs and like

983
00:40:20,270 --> 00:40:18,480
telling people to listen to their show

984
00:40:22,069 --> 00:40:20,280
and I was like no no now it's time to

985
00:40:25,069 --> 00:40:22,079
tell the world like not only don't

986
00:40:27,410 --> 00:40:25,079
listen but uh you know needle them until

987
00:40:28,550 --> 00:40:27,420
they block you because that's also kind

988
00:40:29,390 --> 00:40:28,560
of fun

989
00:40:32,089 --> 00:40:29,400
um

990
00:40:35,089 --> 00:40:32,099
and so just that kind of perspective

991
00:40:38,030 --> 00:40:35,099
um because so it's like all right I'm I

992
00:40:39,950 --> 00:40:38,040
I'm not a fan of bigots and Bullies

993
00:40:42,950 --> 00:40:39,960
um again you know talking about that

994
00:40:44,630 --> 00:40:42,960
intellectual rigor like that I'm always

995
00:40:46,190 --> 00:40:44,640
looking for intellectual and academic

996
00:40:47,990 --> 00:40:46,200
rigor in anything especially if you're

997
00:40:48,950 --> 00:40:48,000
trying to say that it's science right or

998
00:40:50,569 --> 00:40:48,960
you're saying you're trying to move the

999
00:40:53,990 --> 00:40:50,579
needle forward on something

1000
00:40:56,390 --> 00:40:54,000
okay well where's your data right like

1001
00:40:58,310 --> 00:40:56,400
what's the R square do you even know how

1002
00:40:59,870 --> 00:40:58,320
to calculate R square can you calculate

1003
00:41:01,790 --> 00:40:59,880
R square what are you doing how did you

1004
00:41:03,410 --> 00:41:01,800
operationalize this

1005
00:41:07,910 --> 00:41:03,420
so

1006
00:41:10,370 --> 00:41:07,920
I want alternative voices people who

1007
00:41:12,589 --> 00:41:10,380
aren't mainstream people who get who

1008
00:41:13,730 --> 00:41:12,599
haven't been able to connect with the

1009
00:41:15,349 --> 00:41:13,740
mainstream because they don't have the

1010
00:41:18,050 --> 00:41:15,359
same connections or they're not the

1011
00:41:20,690 --> 00:41:18,060
right color they're not the right gender

1012
00:41:23,750 --> 00:41:20,700
um again it kind of started defiantly

1013
00:41:25,430 --> 00:41:23,760
like oh let's create something that that

1014
00:41:27,290 --> 00:41:25,440
is welcoming and kind and again human

1015
00:41:29,630 --> 00:41:27,300
first

1016
00:41:31,910 --> 00:41:29,640
um and it also started because you Jason

1017
00:41:35,390 --> 00:41:31,920
and Mira like we were talking about like

1018
00:41:38,030 --> 00:41:35,400
had wanted to go to Michigan paracon but

1019
00:41:40,690 --> 00:41:38,040
this was right in the crap like Delta

1020
00:41:44,569 --> 00:41:40,700
wave and they had dropped all mask

1021
00:41:46,250 --> 00:41:44,579
requirements to go it's like well those

1022
00:41:49,130 --> 00:41:46,260
of us that don't want to get covered and

1023
00:41:51,349 --> 00:41:49,140
inherently political act right

1024
00:41:54,349 --> 00:41:51,359
I could spend two hours just talking

1025
00:41:55,849 --> 00:41:54,359
about that frankly yeah me too I had a

1026
00:41:58,010 --> 00:41:55,859
client that I had to work with in Utah

1027
00:42:00,410 --> 00:41:58,020
and going from Pittsburgh Pennsylvania

1028
00:42:02,990 --> 00:42:00,420
to Salt Lake City Utah was like living

1029
00:42:05,870 --> 00:42:03,000
in two different planes of reality of

1030
00:42:07,730 --> 00:42:05,880
course yes it's very strange it's

1031
00:42:09,470 --> 00:42:07,740
bizarre yes

1032
00:42:11,089 --> 00:42:09,480
um yeah it's so funny that people don't

1033
00:42:13,730 --> 00:42:11,099
think that things are political when

1034
00:42:16,550 --> 00:42:13,740
they're aligned with their views but

1035
00:42:20,630 --> 00:42:16,560
when it's not Suddenly It's I get I want

1036
00:42:24,470 --> 00:42:20,640
the politics out of out of ufology

1037
00:42:26,210 --> 00:42:24,480
okay okay as if there's anything in our

1038
00:42:28,010 --> 00:42:26,220
current universe that is free from

1039
00:42:30,290 --> 00:42:28,020
politicization or the culture War

1040
00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:30,300
nothing political about showing up on

1041
00:42:35,329 --> 00:42:32,640
the Tucker Carlson show or showing up on

1042
00:42:37,550 --> 00:42:35,339
Joe Rogan to talk about whatever it's

1043
00:42:40,310 --> 00:42:37,560
about UFOs so who cares

1044
00:42:43,490 --> 00:42:40,320
oh God If This Were aluminum can it

1045
00:42:46,730 --> 00:42:43,500
would have been crushed right now

1046
00:42:50,210 --> 00:42:46,740
yeah so yeah let's talk about pen

1047
00:42:52,730 --> 00:42:50,220
paracon yeah so pampericon um again the

1048
00:42:55,970 --> 00:42:52,740
three of us work on it it's it's a

1049
00:42:57,770 --> 00:42:55,980
celebration of diverse voices uh people

1050
00:42:58,910 --> 00:42:57,780
from different backgrounds

1051
00:43:02,890 --> 00:42:58,920
um it is

1052
00:43:05,870 --> 00:43:02,900
so frustrating to see uh you know

1053
00:43:08,089 --> 00:43:05,880
pericon lineup after pericon lineup and

1054
00:43:10,910 --> 00:43:08,099
it's mostly white guys it's like white

1055
00:43:14,450 --> 00:43:10,920
guy with beard white guy with hat white

1056
00:43:19,690 --> 00:43:14,460
guy who's bald and like yeah hair white

1057
00:43:23,349 --> 00:43:19,700
guy yes from like 38 to 56. yes yes

1058
00:43:28,250 --> 00:43:23,359
UFO conference lineups lately and it's

1059
00:43:30,170 --> 00:43:28,260
about the same yes yes exactly so

1060
00:43:32,150 --> 00:43:30,180
um or and maybe there's one woman you

1061
00:43:34,069 --> 00:43:32,160
know and and the token female they're

1062
00:43:36,650 --> 00:43:34,079
token female and like I could put

1063
00:43:39,530 --> 00:43:36,660
together just from the the people I

1064
00:43:41,809 --> 00:43:39,540
follow on my feed like and all either

1065
00:43:43,790 --> 00:43:41,819
all women or all uh like a sign female

1066
00:43:45,190 --> 00:43:43,800
at Birth paracon

1067
00:43:48,770 --> 00:43:45,200
today

1068
00:43:50,150 --> 00:43:48,780
easy right it's not hard to find people

1069
00:43:51,589 --> 00:43:50,160
who don't look like you who are

1070
00:43:55,430 --> 00:43:51,599
interested in the things that you are

1071
00:43:58,370 --> 00:43:55,440
interested in but if you again if you

1072
00:44:01,069 --> 00:43:58,380
don't know that you are racist and

1073
00:44:03,770 --> 00:44:01,079
because you don't say slurs right so I'm

1074
00:44:05,510 --> 00:44:03,780
not racist racism only shows up as

1075
00:44:07,250 --> 00:44:05,520
burning crosses and white robes there's

1076
00:44:09,770 --> 00:44:07,260
no other iteration or version of it

1077
00:44:11,450 --> 00:44:09,780
that's it it's not like it's built in

1078
00:44:14,030 --> 00:44:11,460
and woven into the social structure and

1079
00:44:16,730 --> 00:44:14,040
it's just part of socialization in our

1080
00:44:20,450 --> 00:44:16,740
society sure

1081
00:44:24,430 --> 00:44:20,460
um so yeah so then it literally a royal

1082
00:44:29,569 --> 00:44:27,170
I can't wait for all the angry to post

1083
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:29,579
show twitters to be like the show is

1084
00:44:35,450 --> 00:44:32,400
racist against white guys sorry guys

1085
00:44:38,210 --> 00:44:35,460
sorry Campbell sorry Lewis nowhere I'll

1086
00:44:44,270 --> 00:44:38,220
step up uh

1087
00:44:49,849 --> 00:44:45,950
language in the first place it's like

1088
00:44:51,890 --> 00:44:49,859
racism implies a structure of hatred

1089
00:44:53,569 --> 00:44:51,900
where whites are at the top and

1090
00:44:56,150 --> 00:44:53,579
everybody else is underneath it is

1091
00:44:58,670 --> 00:44:56,160
structural you can be bigoted against

1092
00:45:01,910 --> 00:44:58,680
somebody who is not part of like the

1093
00:45:03,770 --> 00:45:01,920
dominant group in the hegemony but you

1094
00:45:06,589 --> 00:45:03,780
can't struck have a structural issue

1095
00:45:08,750 --> 00:45:06,599
against them again I think it was

1096
00:45:11,030 --> 00:45:08,760
um skinny legs and all but Tom Robbins

1097
00:45:12,829 --> 00:45:11,040
has this point about like uh you know

1098
00:45:15,230 --> 00:45:12,839
imprecision in language leads to

1099
00:45:16,550 --> 00:45:15,240
Insanity so I try again when things come

1100
00:45:18,050 --> 00:45:16,560
up like that I'm like let's be really

1101
00:45:19,250 --> 00:45:18,060
precise with the language that we're

1102
00:45:20,569 --> 00:45:19,260
using here

1103
00:45:21,910 --> 00:45:20,579
yeah

1104
00:45:24,230 --> 00:45:21,920
anyway

1105
00:45:26,990 --> 00:45:24,240
uh I just wanted to see something

1106
00:45:28,849 --> 00:45:27,000
different and I followed a lot of cool

1107
00:45:33,410 --> 00:45:28,859
people it was just like I like what

1108
00:45:39,589 --> 00:45:35,530
that's how I do a lot of things

1109
00:45:41,930 --> 00:45:39,599
the language piece though I I do uh

1110
00:45:44,630 --> 00:45:41,940
appreciate that's always a factor in all

1111
00:45:47,150 --> 00:45:44,640
the conversations and uh especially on

1112
00:45:49,750 --> 00:45:47,160
the skeptic side I find uh probably for

1113
00:45:52,370 --> 00:45:49,760
good reason a lot of my most uh intense

1114
00:45:55,069 --> 00:45:52,380
conversations are with fellow Skeptics

1115
00:45:58,250 --> 00:45:55,079
because we're sort of uh operating from

1116
00:46:00,170 --> 00:45:58,260
a shared standard of reasoning and

1117
00:46:03,530 --> 00:46:00,180
things like that

1118
00:46:06,170 --> 00:46:03,540
um yeah so it's like with the language

1119
00:46:08,270 --> 00:46:06,180
there's a typical thing it's like do

1120
00:46:11,569 --> 00:46:08,280
UFOs exist

1121
00:46:12,890 --> 00:46:11,579
yes or no or whatever right uh I'm just

1122
00:46:14,329 --> 00:46:12,900
curious how would you answer that

1123
00:46:15,790 --> 00:46:14,339
question and what would be your

1124
00:46:19,370 --> 00:46:15,800
justification

1125
00:46:22,490 --> 00:46:19,380
so I again hate answering questions with

1126
00:46:26,089 --> 00:46:22,500
questions but I do like a lot right what

1127
00:46:29,270 --> 00:46:26,099
what are what do you consider a UFO what

1128
00:46:31,550 --> 00:46:29,280
does it mean by it existing right

1129
00:46:33,050 --> 00:46:31,560
um again I have more like

1130
00:46:35,210 --> 00:46:33,060
interdimensional

1131
00:46:38,089 --> 00:46:35,220
you know Collective unconscious ideas

1132
00:46:41,390 --> 00:46:38,099
about what these things are if you ask

1133
00:46:43,069 --> 00:46:41,400
me nuts and bolts if I was uh 11 when I

1134
00:46:44,870 --> 00:46:43,079
first got into the X-Files and all that

1135
00:46:46,609 --> 00:46:44,880
I probably would have said yes now I'm

1136
00:46:48,349 --> 00:46:46,619
like I think you're a I think you're

1137
00:46:50,870 --> 00:46:48,359
missing the point by even asking that

1138
00:46:52,970 --> 00:46:50,880
question and B

1139
00:46:55,130 --> 00:46:52,980
um what what do you even mean by any of

1140
00:46:58,849 --> 00:46:55,140
these terms

1141
00:47:01,069 --> 00:46:58,859
so are you a fan of uh Jacques Valley

1142
00:47:02,990 --> 00:47:01,079
read a lot of his stuff again I feel

1143
00:47:04,970 --> 00:47:03,000
like I I kind of was into it as a kid

1144
00:47:07,730 --> 00:47:04,980
and now have like kind of stumbled into

1145
00:47:09,170 --> 00:47:07,740
a lot of this now and haven't read a lot

1146
00:47:11,809 --> 00:47:09,180
of the classic

1147
00:47:13,730 --> 00:47:11,819
writers in the field Louis be nice to

1148
00:47:15,770 --> 00:47:13,740
her she's one of our rare non-ufo people

1149
00:47:17,870 --> 00:47:15,780
yeah we want to welcome these kinds of

1150
00:47:23,050 --> 00:47:17,880
people we don't really want to find the

1151
00:47:28,250 --> 00:47:26,210
the light is the um in case you don't

1152
00:47:31,430 --> 00:47:28,260
know who's one of the uh proponents of

1153
00:47:33,829 --> 00:47:31,440
the interdimensional hypothesis okay

1154
00:47:35,690 --> 00:47:33,839
yeah yeah so that's that's what I would

1155
00:47:39,470 --> 00:47:35,700
say if it's

1156
00:47:42,230 --> 00:47:39,480
although I I'm more of the idea of like

1157
00:47:43,849 --> 00:47:42,240
hyperspace right like that I like

1158
00:47:45,349 --> 00:47:43,859
there's a book called surfing through

1159
00:47:46,790 --> 00:47:45,359
hyperspace and I like the way he

1160
00:47:48,650 --> 00:47:46,800
conceives of it

1161
00:47:51,290 --> 00:47:48,660
um this idea of like a four-dimensional

1162
00:47:53,870 --> 00:47:51,300
entity that we're only ever seeing a

1163
00:47:56,750 --> 00:47:53,880
three-dimensional cross-section of so

1164
00:47:58,130 --> 00:47:56,760
again existence like you have to posit

1165
00:47:59,329 --> 00:47:58,140
like existence that you're not even

1166
00:48:01,790 --> 00:47:59,339
familiar with because you're just

1167
00:48:03,170 --> 00:48:01,800
dealing with three-dimensional space so

1168
00:48:04,849 --> 00:48:03,180
I think that's why like some people can

1169
00:48:07,550 --> 00:48:04,859
see lights in the sky some people see

1170
00:48:09,109 --> 00:48:07,560
Bigfoot some people see a ghost whatever

1171
00:48:11,390 --> 00:48:09,119
it is

1172
00:48:13,870 --> 00:48:11,400
um because you're only getting a

1173
00:48:16,190 --> 00:48:13,880
particular cross-section of something

1174
00:48:17,750 --> 00:48:16,200
and Vanessa would you say that you've

1175
00:48:19,630 --> 00:48:17,760
sort of something that I've noticed

1176
00:48:22,370 --> 00:48:19,640
anyway like there are these sort of

1177
00:48:26,329 --> 00:48:22,380
qualitative maybe similarities uh

1178
00:48:29,750 --> 00:48:26,339
between descriptions uh from like you

1179
00:48:31,970 --> 00:48:29,760
know the occult side of interacting

1180
00:48:33,829 --> 00:48:31,980
during the middle of like one of the uh

1181
00:48:37,010 --> 00:48:33,839
ritual practices you sort of like

1182
00:48:38,630 --> 00:48:37,020
experience uh some kind of entity and

1183
00:48:40,670 --> 00:48:38,640
then there's like psychedelics where

1184
00:48:42,589 --> 00:48:40,680
people qualitatively are describing

1185
00:48:44,150 --> 00:48:42,599
something almost identical

1186
00:48:45,770 --> 00:48:44,160
you know and then we talked a little bit

1187
00:48:48,470 --> 00:48:45,780
about like the ghost experiences and

1188
00:48:49,730 --> 00:48:48,480
other kind of like intense uh things

1189
00:48:52,309 --> 00:48:49,740
like that

1190
00:48:54,470 --> 00:48:52,319
um in your engagement with these

1191
00:48:56,569 --> 00:48:54,480
subjects and uh more broadly because you

1192
00:48:58,490 --> 00:48:56,579
sort of touch on a few of them all at

1193
00:49:02,150 --> 00:48:58,500
the same time like are you I've been

1194
00:49:03,770 --> 00:49:02,160
seeing those similarities and if so or

1195
00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:03,780
not like I could just talk a little bit

1196
00:49:07,849 --> 00:49:05,760
about your interpretation of that yeah

1197
00:49:09,470 --> 00:49:07,859
so I think this is my

1198
00:49:13,430 --> 00:49:09,480
um kind of fundamental issue with

1199
00:49:15,650 --> 00:49:13,440
ufology to begin with because I think

1200
00:49:18,050 --> 00:49:15,660
just the way that we're talking about it

1201
00:49:20,270 --> 00:49:18,060
is very limiting again I and I and not

1202
00:49:21,069 --> 00:49:20,280
to just [\h__\h] on ufology like this

1203
00:49:24,050 --> 00:49:21,079
happens

1204
00:49:26,329 --> 00:49:24,060
okay I mean I like that this is a safe

1205
00:49:28,010 --> 00:49:26,339
space for that but

1206
00:49:29,809 --> 00:49:28,020
um again just talking about this idea of

1207
00:49:32,510 --> 00:49:29,819
like okay how do we even conceptualize

1208
00:49:34,130 --> 00:49:32,520
what we're talking about right as long

1209
00:49:35,990 --> 00:49:34,140
as you're saying like what's a UFO right

1210
00:49:39,470 --> 00:49:36,000
yes you've already made a stack of

1211
00:49:41,210 --> 00:49:39,480
assumptions yes going into that and

1212
00:49:44,030 --> 00:49:41,220
again my background is in social science

1213
00:49:45,770 --> 00:49:44,040
research and and how are we

1214
00:49:49,069 --> 00:49:45,780
operationalizing this and of course I'm

1215
00:49:51,349 --> 00:49:49,079
informed by feminism right so even the

1216
00:49:53,329 --> 00:49:51,359
choice when you're doing say like a

1217
00:49:55,490 --> 00:49:53,339
quantitative study you're trying to

1218
00:49:57,829 --> 00:49:55,500
measure something even the choice of

1219
00:50:00,950 --> 00:49:57,839
choosing a measure to measure the data

1220
00:50:02,870 --> 00:50:00,960
is a subjective choice and you are

1221
00:50:04,730 --> 00:50:02,880
limiting your data collection and you

1222
00:50:07,190 --> 00:50:04,740
can pretend that it's objective but

1223
00:50:08,809 --> 00:50:07,200
again deciding the subject to measure

1224
00:50:10,670 --> 00:50:08,819
the measure that you the means you're

1225
00:50:12,770 --> 00:50:10,680
using to measure it all of those are

1226
00:50:16,250 --> 00:50:12,780
subjective choices

1227
00:50:17,990 --> 00:50:16,260
so so again I I every time people are

1228
00:50:20,630 --> 00:50:18,000
like well let's go Bigfoot hunting it's

1229
00:50:22,250 --> 00:50:20,640
like first you think it's a real you say

1230
00:50:24,530 --> 00:50:22,260
okay you think it's a real animal a real

1231
00:50:26,450 --> 00:50:24,540
animal you can see that it exists in

1232
00:50:28,010 --> 00:50:26,460
this space that sometimes hides and

1233
00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:28,020
sometimes visible you know you're making

1234
00:50:31,970 --> 00:50:29,760
all these assumptions like

1235
00:50:33,770 --> 00:50:31,980
even with ghosts right or especially so

1236
00:50:36,050 --> 00:50:33,780
much of paranormal television is like

1237
00:50:39,650 --> 00:50:36,060
ghosts or demons you made a lot of

1238
00:50:41,270 --> 00:50:39,660
assumptions cosmologically if you have

1239
00:50:43,250 --> 00:50:41,280
decided that all of these things are

1240
00:50:44,750 --> 00:50:43,260
demons

1241
00:50:47,270 --> 00:50:44,760
um you know and then people are talking

1242
00:50:50,270 --> 00:50:47,280
about this being objective it's like

1243
00:50:51,589 --> 00:50:50,280
first of all take take all the steps

1244
00:50:53,390 --> 00:50:51,599
back

1245
00:50:55,069 --> 00:50:53,400
the way that you are describing all of

1246
00:50:56,510 --> 00:50:55,079
these things and claiming to know the

1247
00:50:59,569 --> 00:50:56,520
objective truth about all these things

1248
00:51:01,970 --> 00:50:59,579
is using language that we invented at

1249
00:51:04,730 --> 00:51:01,980
some point in time you are only ever

1250
00:51:06,170 --> 00:51:04,740
going to get an approximation of what is

1251
00:51:08,089 --> 00:51:06,180
actually going on

1252
00:51:10,190 --> 00:51:08,099
period

1253
00:51:12,589 --> 00:51:10,200
so if you can start from that point and

1254
00:51:13,910 --> 00:51:12,599
you want to have like Explorations about

1255
00:51:15,650 --> 00:51:13,920
what you think you know or what you

1256
00:51:17,930 --> 00:51:15,660
think you might know then I get really

1257
00:51:20,089 --> 00:51:17,940
excited but if you're stepping in and

1258
00:51:21,650 --> 00:51:20,099
saying I know what this is these are all

1259
00:51:23,510 --> 00:51:21,660
individual things

1260
00:51:25,970 --> 00:51:23,520
you know again I can see the connection

1261
00:51:29,930 --> 00:51:25,980
between fairy lore or with you know

1262
00:51:32,210 --> 00:51:29,940
biblical angels and the UFOs to me these

1263
00:51:34,010 --> 00:51:32,220
are all similar if not the same story

1264
00:51:36,710 --> 00:51:34,020
that's being told in a particular

1265
00:51:37,370 --> 00:51:36,720
historical cultural lens

1266
00:51:39,650 --> 00:51:37,380
um

1267
00:51:42,109 --> 00:51:39,660
so so then when people are like nuts and

1268
00:51:44,390 --> 00:51:42,119
bolts UFOs disclosure Bigfoot whatever

1269
00:51:46,069 --> 00:51:44,400
it is ghosts I'm like

1270
00:51:47,030 --> 00:51:46,079
you don't even know what that's what

1271
00:51:50,210 --> 00:51:47,040
that is

1272
00:51:52,670 --> 00:51:50,220
you you think it is maybe the ghosts Are

1273
00:51:55,309 --> 00:51:52,680
UFOs and the UFOs are ghosts

1274
00:51:57,470 --> 00:51:55,319
yes the best the best we can do in

1275
00:51:59,270 --> 00:51:57,480
disgustingly it's so difficult to wrap

1276
00:52:02,809 --> 00:51:59,280
language around the ineffable in general

1277
00:52:03,710 --> 00:52:02,819
right and the best we can do really

1278
00:52:06,349 --> 00:52:03,720
um

1279
00:52:08,870 --> 00:52:06,359
around these subjects in my opinion is

1280
00:52:12,049 --> 00:52:08,880
basically convey through symbol and

1281
00:52:14,290 --> 00:52:12,059
metaphor right in myth yeah um like are

1282
00:52:16,730 --> 00:52:14,300
sort of quantitative reasoning models

1283
00:52:19,010 --> 00:52:16,740
are insufficient

1284
00:52:22,250 --> 00:52:19,020
for exploring a lot of these parts of

1285
00:52:24,950 --> 00:52:22,260
Human Experience yes yes and again just

1286
00:52:27,170 --> 00:52:24,960
reproducing you're talking about therapy

1287
00:52:29,270 --> 00:52:27,180
that reproduces capitalism right it's

1288
00:52:31,190 --> 00:52:29,280
just reproducing the same repressive

1289
00:52:32,809 --> 00:52:31,200
systems where things can be reduced

1290
00:52:35,270 --> 00:52:32,819
where things can be controlled or things

1291
00:52:37,190 --> 00:52:35,280
can be dominated again that I even the

1292
00:52:39,290 --> 00:52:37,200
idea of like Bigfoot hunting or UFO

1293
00:52:41,210 --> 00:52:39,300
hunting like even that language of like

1294
00:52:44,990 --> 00:52:41,220
there's the first soldiers

1295
00:52:46,910 --> 00:52:45,000
oh God right or even the idea of

1296
00:52:48,589 --> 00:52:46,920
breeding programs like again horror

1297
00:52:50,990 --> 00:52:48,599
movies are such examples of like

1298
00:52:53,630 --> 00:52:51,000
Collective fears but really ufology is

1299
00:52:58,010 --> 00:52:53,640
too like this yeah this is something

1300
00:52:59,210 --> 00:52:58,020
nick uh bless him in absentia one of one

1301
00:53:01,730 --> 00:52:59,220
of the points he makes that I think

1302
00:53:05,450 --> 00:53:01,740
about frequently is basically how

1303
00:53:07,370 --> 00:53:05,460
um UFOs have um reflected sort of the

1304
00:53:09,290 --> 00:53:07,380
anxieties of the eras in which they're

1305
00:53:11,690 --> 00:53:09,300
witnessed so like in the 90s we're

1306
00:53:13,250 --> 00:53:11,700
talking about genetics and hybrids and

1307
00:53:14,210 --> 00:53:13,260
things like that

1308
00:53:17,809 --> 00:53:14,220
um

1309
00:53:20,930 --> 00:53:17,819
and it does in many not all the time but

1310
00:53:23,390 --> 00:53:20,940
it does often looks fuel to me like the

1311
00:53:25,790 --> 00:53:23,400
subject does sort of reflect back sort

1312
00:53:28,970 --> 00:53:25,800
of the collective neuroses about

1313
00:53:30,650 --> 00:53:28,980
whatever the preoccupying anxiety of the

1314
00:53:32,990 --> 00:53:30,660
day may be

1315
00:53:35,390 --> 00:53:33,000
um which at one of the questions I had

1316
00:53:37,549 --> 00:53:35,400
written down to ask you about was how

1317
00:53:39,349 --> 00:53:37,559
you think about or what your view on the

1318
00:53:41,710 --> 00:53:39,359
relationship between the Paranormal and

1319
00:53:45,290 --> 00:53:41,720
Technology may be

1320
00:53:47,089 --> 00:53:45,300
so I think again this is so that I think

1321
00:53:48,710 --> 00:53:47,099
ultimately this gets goes back to like

1322
00:53:51,069 --> 00:53:48,720
chaos magic where it's like if you

1323
00:53:53,390 --> 00:53:51,079
believe something about that

1324
00:53:55,250 --> 00:53:53,400
do you believe something is valuable

1325
00:53:57,650 --> 00:53:55,260
then it will be valuable do you believe

1326
00:54:00,170 --> 00:53:57,660
something is useful it will be useful is

1327
00:54:02,089 --> 00:54:00,180
it do you believe deeply in something

1328
00:54:04,069 --> 00:54:02,099
enough that you can you think you can

1329
00:54:05,270 --> 00:54:04,079
change your reality with it then you

1330
00:54:08,450 --> 00:54:05,280
will

1331
00:54:10,430 --> 00:54:08,460
um so technology

1332
00:54:12,170 --> 00:54:10,440
so on the one hand it's kind of

1333
00:54:14,809 --> 00:54:12,180
problematic because using technology

1334
00:54:17,150 --> 00:54:14,819
presumes that the entities are able to

1335
00:54:18,950 --> 00:54:17,160
interact with us in a way again that

1336
00:54:21,109 --> 00:54:18,960
that they're already like manipulating

1337
00:54:23,390 --> 00:54:21,119
Electronics or the electrical field or

1338
00:54:25,790 --> 00:54:23,400
any of that that they have that ability

1339
00:54:26,569 --> 00:54:25,800
that they want to

1340
00:54:30,049 --> 00:54:26,579
um

1341
00:54:32,170 --> 00:54:30,059
oh yeah Jason yikes up those thank you

1342
00:54:35,630 --> 00:54:32,180
Jay yeah

1343
00:54:40,430 --> 00:54:35,640
Waldorf yeah I know yikes

1344
00:54:47,030 --> 00:54:43,910
um never a dull moment on Twitter uh but

1345
00:54:49,609 --> 00:54:47,040
yeah so with with technology again it's

1346
00:54:52,309 --> 00:54:49,619
also this idea that anything that can be

1347
00:54:54,170 --> 00:54:52,319
that it can be measured like that's

1348
00:54:56,030 --> 00:54:54,180
that's how we can act this is science

1349
00:54:58,190 --> 00:54:56,040
and we can access things with science

1350
00:55:01,130 --> 00:54:58,200
all right scientific methodology

1351
00:55:03,470 --> 00:55:01,140
requires a little more rigor okay

1352
00:55:05,270 --> 00:55:03,480
um on the other hand from that chaos

1353
00:55:06,890 --> 00:55:05,280
magic perspective it's like if this is a

1354
00:55:08,030 --> 00:55:06,900
tool that is going to get you in the

1355
00:55:09,589 --> 00:55:08,040
headspace where you think you can

1356
00:55:12,049 --> 00:55:09,599
connect with another you're going to

1357
00:55:14,809 --> 00:55:12,059
like that it like that is a

1358
00:55:17,270 --> 00:55:14,819
magnification of your again personal

1359
00:55:19,670 --> 00:55:17,280
energies I think is valuable

1360
00:55:22,609 --> 00:55:19,680
are we actually talking to ghosts again

1361
00:55:23,930 --> 00:55:22,619
do we know what ghosts are like what do

1362
00:55:25,790 --> 00:55:23,940
we think that we're interacting with

1363
00:55:26,569 --> 00:55:25,800
with all this stuff

1364
00:55:28,490 --> 00:55:26,579
um

1365
00:55:31,670 --> 00:55:28,500
again but I also grew up in Nintendo so

1366
00:55:32,870 --> 00:55:31,680
I'm like I love gadgets uh

1367
00:55:34,670 --> 00:55:32,880
yeah

1368
00:55:36,470 --> 00:55:34,680
it's not really an answer it was just

1369
00:55:38,089 --> 00:55:36,480
kind of a lot of meanderings but that's

1370
00:55:41,030 --> 00:55:38,099
where I met with technology

1371
00:55:43,250 --> 00:55:41,040
well if a few weeks ago we had a Marco

1372
00:55:44,569 --> 00:55:43,260
viscontian and that was a neat

1373
00:55:48,829 --> 00:55:44,579
conversation for me because I've never

1374
00:55:50,690 --> 00:55:48,839
engaged with the subject of magic uh in

1375
00:55:53,390 --> 00:55:50,700
an occult sense it was something I just

1376
00:55:54,950 --> 00:55:53,400
was not on my radar at all and he opened

1377
00:55:56,990 --> 00:55:54,960
my eyes to

1378
00:55:58,609 --> 00:55:57,000
it meaning something different from what

1379
00:55:59,630 --> 00:55:58,619
I thought it meant uh you know the

1380
00:56:01,490 --> 00:55:59,640
language again

1381
00:56:03,109 --> 00:56:01,500
um and that's I guess why you put the K

1382
00:56:05,569 --> 00:56:03,119
on there so you can distinguish is what

1383
00:56:08,210 --> 00:56:05,579
he was saying but um so he was talking

1384
00:56:09,890 --> 00:56:08,220
about how magic is about actually like a

1385
00:56:11,870 --> 00:56:09,900
set of like you know practices rituals

1386
00:56:13,569 --> 00:56:11,880
and stuff like intending to accomplish

1387
00:56:17,390 --> 00:56:13,579
something in reality

1388
00:56:18,890 --> 00:56:17,400
and you know to me it's like

1389
00:56:20,390 --> 00:56:18,900
I was thinking about it after the

1390
00:56:23,329 --> 00:56:20,400
conversation I was thinking like well

1391
00:56:26,870 --> 00:56:23,339
like the scientific method is basically

1392
00:56:28,970 --> 00:56:26,880
like the origins of Magic the organism

1393
00:56:31,609 --> 00:56:28,980
magic where like people looking at this

1394
00:56:33,730 --> 00:56:31,619
the people who were doing the stars and

1395
00:56:36,410 --> 00:56:33,740
uh you know predicting things accurately

1396
00:56:37,790 --> 00:56:36,420
were The Magicians and then you know

1397
00:56:39,049 --> 00:56:37,800
that transition into whatever and that's

1398
00:56:42,349 --> 00:56:39,059
sort of like

1399
00:56:43,849 --> 00:56:42,359
rituals and stuff but then if you want

1400
00:56:46,010 --> 00:56:43,859
to accomplish something in reality we

1401
00:56:47,450 --> 00:56:46,020
have a system to most effectively

1402
00:56:48,470 --> 00:56:47,460
produce that it's called the scientific

1403
00:56:50,030 --> 00:56:48,480
method because it's based on

1404
00:56:52,250 --> 00:56:50,040
replicability and stuff like that so

1405
00:56:53,870 --> 00:56:52,260
it's like his science magic or whatever

1406
00:56:56,390 --> 00:56:53,880
you know it's like

1407
00:56:58,670 --> 00:56:56,400
for chaos magic I understand the purpose

1408
00:56:59,930 --> 00:56:58,680
is to accomplish things in reality so

1409
00:57:03,049 --> 00:56:59,940
I'm just would you be able to like sort

1410
00:57:06,650 --> 00:57:03,059
of spell out like the practice of that

1411
00:57:07,790 --> 00:57:06,660
yeah so again a chaos magic practice is

1412
00:57:10,250 --> 00:57:07,800
going to look

1413
00:57:11,930 --> 00:57:10,260
like different than everyone it's it's

1414
00:57:14,089 --> 00:57:11,940
idiosyncratic and that's the power and

1415
00:57:18,530 --> 00:57:14,099
that's the point right

1416
00:57:20,329 --> 00:57:18,540
um this idea that you can make

1417
00:57:24,530 --> 00:57:20,339
appreciable changes in your material

1418
00:57:26,450 --> 00:57:24,540
reality and it's using signs and symbols

1419
00:57:29,329 --> 00:57:26,460
that are important to you in order to

1420
00:57:31,190 --> 00:57:29,339
achieve that right I mean my kind of

1421
00:57:33,290 --> 00:57:31,200
sensibility about God has has been

1422
00:57:36,410 --> 00:57:33,300
fairly similar for the past like decade

1423
00:57:37,849 --> 00:57:36,420
or so this idea that like again we're

1424
00:57:39,770 --> 00:57:37,859
all connected to some collective

1425
00:57:41,210 --> 00:57:39,780
unconscious but or God whatever you want

1426
00:57:43,069 --> 00:57:41,220
to call it

1427
00:57:44,750 --> 00:57:43,079
um but we don't believe that we are

1428
00:57:47,150 --> 00:57:44,760
we're actively taught that we're evil

1429
00:57:51,230 --> 00:57:47,160
and sinful and all of those things

1430
00:57:53,870 --> 00:57:51,240
and so you can't access your own

1431
00:57:55,370 --> 00:57:53,880
you know power because you've been

1432
00:57:57,710 --> 00:57:55,380
taught that you're terrible your entire

1433
00:57:59,510 --> 00:57:57,720
life but you can believe in a God so you

1434
00:58:01,430 --> 00:57:59,520
can externalize your power that way and

1435
00:58:02,930 --> 00:58:01,440
have power that way

1436
00:58:04,790 --> 00:58:02,940
um I feel like the example that goes

1437
00:58:07,910 --> 00:58:04,800
around a lot is like if believing in

1438
00:58:10,069 --> 00:58:07,920
Batman it gives you that power to like

1439
00:58:12,290 --> 00:58:10,079
again change your life and make changes

1440
00:58:15,710 --> 00:58:12,300
and and and do what you want to do like

1441
00:58:18,170 --> 00:58:15,720
Batman is just as valuable as

1442
00:58:20,450 --> 00:58:18,180
um as you know the god of the Bible like

1443
00:58:22,790 --> 00:58:20,460
it's it's believing in that power and

1444
00:58:25,790 --> 00:58:22,800
that Force because it's a way to get you

1445
00:58:27,770 --> 00:58:25,800
out of your own head more embodied and

1446
00:58:29,990 --> 00:58:27,780
believing in that again that ability to

1447
00:58:33,049 --> 00:58:30,000
change your material reality

1448
00:58:34,970 --> 00:58:33,059
um so again my my whole practice is

1449
00:58:36,770 --> 00:58:34,980
pretty idiosyncratic

1450
00:58:38,930 --> 00:58:36,780
um I just kind of like it's it's

1451
00:58:41,030 --> 00:58:38,940
ecstatic so like in the moment if I'm

1452
00:58:42,410 --> 00:58:41,040
feeling a particular you know like

1453
00:58:43,490 --> 00:58:42,420
saying a particular verse or something

1454
00:58:45,109 --> 00:58:43,500
like that

1455
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:45,119
um the problem with my stuff is it's not

1456
00:58:49,670 --> 00:58:47,520
replicable because I don't record

1457
00:58:50,809 --> 00:58:49,680
everything that I do although maybe I

1458
00:58:51,530 --> 00:58:50,819
should

1459
00:58:54,650 --> 00:58:51,540
um

1460
00:58:56,150 --> 00:58:54,660
so so it's like okay what works right if

1461
00:58:58,609 --> 00:58:56,160
I can remember what elements of a

1462
00:59:01,609 --> 00:58:58,619
particular spell like what works

1463
00:59:03,890 --> 00:59:01,619
um again again being a teenage Edge Lord

1464
00:59:06,109 --> 00:59:03,900
and all the Nietzsche like what is by

1465
00:59:08,930 --> 00:59:06,119
Will what am I accomplishing like how is

1466
00:59:16,309 --> 00:59:08,940
my will directing my actions

1467
00:59:20,150 --> 00:59:17,930
let's have a question and ask if you've

1468
00:59:24,170 --> 00:59:20,160
ever practiced in any formal lineages or

1469
00:59:26,990 --> 00:59:24,180
schools or Traditions I haven't no

1470
00:59:28,789 --> 00:59:27,000
um I find it pretty much impossible to

1471
00:59:31,250 --> 00:59:28,799
join things that's why I'm usually

1472
00:59:33,170 --> 00:59:31,260
starting something

1473
00:59:35,230 --> 00:59:33,180
um because I don't like people in their

1474
00:59:37,670 --> 00:59:35,240
roles

1475
00:59:39,650 --> 00:59:37,680
I've been that way since I was at least

1476
00:59:40,670 --> 00:59:39,660
five

1477
00:59:43,609 --> 00:59:40,680
um

1478
00:59:45,109 --> 00:59:43,619
yeah so I I looked into it and also I

1479
00:59:47,210 --> 00:59:45,119
mean this is part of the why I can't

1480
00:59:48,470 --> 00:59:47,220
really hang with witches it's like I

1481
00:59:51,470 --> 00:59:48,480
don't believe that any particular

1482
00:59:53,930 --> 00:59:51,480
practice is more connected to whatever

1483
00:59:56,450 --> 00:59:53,940
is going on outside our perception than

1484
00:59:59,030 --> 00:59:56,460
any other one so if you're like I have

1485
01:00:01,670 --> 00:59:59,040
the one true knowledge cool

1486
01:00:03,710 --> 01:00:01,680
um oh yours was created in like 1910 as

1487
01:00:05,089 --> 01:00:03,720
opposed to 1911 like you're just

1488
01:00:10,490 --> 01:00:05,099
reconstructing

1489
01:00:14,470 --> 01:00:10,500
think happened anyway like again I'm at

1490
01:00:20,150 --> 01:00:16,870
I just make everything up and that

1491
01:00:22,609 --> 01:00:20,160
that's what's great about it

1492
01:00:25,010 --> 01:00:22,619
yes one of the um I'm a huge fan of

1493
01:00:28,069 --> 01:00:25,020
Daniel Ingram who has written

1494
01:00:29,630 --> 01:00:28,079
um so Daniel Ingram wrote mastering the

1495
01:00:32,089 --> 01:00:29,640
core teachings of the Buddha which is

1496
01:00:33,829 --> 01:00:32,099
basically like the Bible for anyone

1497
01:00:34,730 --> 01:00:33,839
who's interested in the pragmatic Dharma

1498
01:00:36,770 --> 01:00:34,740
movement

1499
01:00:39,170 --> 01:00:36,780
um but it since publication he's gotten

1500
01:00:41,750 --> 01:00:39,180
much more I would say

1501
01:00:43,730 --> 01:00:41,760
out there into the woo like into the

1502
01:00:45,470 --> 01:00:43,740
occult into the expanse of an exotic

1503
01:00:47,150 --> 01:00:45,480
States Of Consciousness he founded the

1504
01:00:48,770 --> 01:00:47,160
emergent phenomenology research

1505
01:00:50,990 --> 01:00:48,780
Consortium

1506
01:00:53,569 --> 01:00:51,000
um yeah he's amazing if you've never

1507
01:00:55,549 --> 01:00:53,579
checked him out highly recommended

1508
01:00:57,289 --> 01:00:55,559
um it's it's really great to find about

1509
01:00:58,490 --> 01:00:57,299
like little off-label podcasts too

1510
01:01:00,109 --> 01:00:58,500
because that's when he'll talk about the

1511
01:01:02,630 --> 01:01:00,119
really weird stuff instead of just like

1512
01:01:04,250 --> 01:01:02,640
yeah you know mahasi side out noting

1513
01:01:06,230 --> 01:01:04,260
practice from the Buddhist Meditation

1514
01:01:08,270 --> 01:01:06,240
like he'll get like into really strange

1515
01:01:10,609 --> 01:01:08,280
stuff in some of the smaller podcasts so

1516
01:01:12,230 --> 01:01:10,619
good but one of the things I was saying

1517
01:01:14,089 --> 01:01:12,240
he smokes on our show yeah exactly

1518
01:01:17,950 --> 01:01:14,099
exactly it was like right well that's

1519
01:01:20,450 --> 01:01:17,960
because I was like yeah psychedelics

1520
01:01:23,630 --> 01:01:20,460
tell us it's just us just whispered in

1521
01:01:25,430 --> 01:01:23,640
my ear I've tried cannabis yes you

1522
01:01:27,530 --> 01:01:25,440
smoked cannabis and likes drinking beer

1523
01:01:29,569 --> 01:01:27,540
which is like about what you would

1524
01:01:31,730 --> 01:01:29,579
expect

1525
01:01:33,530 --> 01:01:31,740
but uh one of the things Daniel Ingram

1526
01:01:35,030 --> 01:01:33,540
talks about is

1527
01:01:38,569 --> 01:01:35,040
um with the Advent of the internet right

1528
01:01:40,910 --> 01:01:38,579
like we've basically seen the um

1529
01:01:43,010 --> 01:01:40,920
uh disintegration of these hierarchical

1530
01:01:44,569 --> 01:01:43,020
lineage structures

1531
01:01:46,430 --> 01:01:44,579
um so like where it used to be like if

1532
01:01:48,049 --> 01:01:46,440
you were like so I've been a rosicrucian

1533
01:01:49,430 --> 01:01:48,059
for like six years like so I get the

1534
01:01:51,650 --> 01:01:49,440
mailings and [\h__\h]

1535
01:01:53,690 --> 01:01:51,660
um I know I know full well I could

1536
01:01:56,150 --> 01:01:53,700
probably find every single mailing in a

1537
01:01:58,069 --> 01:01:56,160
PDF on like Pirate Bay or like on some

1538
01:01:59,510 --> 01:01:58,079
you know touring site but I like getting

1539
01:02:01,849 --> 01:01:59,520
those every single month and I like

1540
01:02:04,309 --> 01:02:01,859
paying my ten dollars and you know yeah

1541
01:02:05,170 --> 01:02:04,319
you know reveling in the in the

1542
01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:05,180
um

1543
01:02:08,030 --> 01:02:07,440
all this weird stuff

1544
01:02:10,370 --> 01:02:08,040
um

1545
01:02:12,589 --> 01:02:10,380
but the point he basically makes is that

1546
01:02:14,870 --> 01:02:12,599
because there is now effectively

1547
01:02:17,030 --> 01:02:14,880
unfettered access to trainings practices

1548
01:02:18,170 --> 01:02:17,040
Traditions teachings Etc that

1549
01:02:20,510 --> 01:02:18,180
historically have been sort of gate

1550
01:02:21,710 --> 01:02:20,520
capped the best the the next best thing

1551
01:02:23,870 --> 01:02:21,720
that we can do is basically

1552
01:02:26,089 --> 01:02:23,880
appropriately prepare people for

1553
01:02:28,069 --> 01:02:26,099
engaging in these practices

1554
01:02:29,510 --> 01:02:28,079
um because they can't be like look

1555
01:02:31,010 --> 01:02:29,520
whether or not you believe in the

1556
01:02:32,870 --> 01:02:31,020
numinous or the mystical or the

1557
01:02:34,670 --> 01:02:32,880
mysterious the reality is that sitting

1558
01:02:36,589 --> 01:02:34,680
for multiple hours and meditation a day

1559
01:02:38,210 --> 01:02:36,599
can do really strange [\h__\h] to your brain

1560
01:02:39,650 --> 01:02:38,220
it can give you manic episode it can

1561
01:02:40,910 --> 01:02:39,660
give you psychosis it can give you a

1562
01:02:43,609 --> 01:02:40,920
total depersonalization and

1563
01:02:46,190 --> 01:02:43,619
derealization it can be effectively

1564
01:02:47,510 --> 01:02:46,200
um exactly like taking a high sybin

1565
01:02:50,089 --> 01:02:47,520
experience

1566
01:02:52,430 --> 01:02:50,099
um and and so because

1567
01:02:53,630 --> 01:02:52,440
um these typical gatekeeping mechanisms

1568
01:02:55,190 --> 01:02:53,640
which

1569
01:02:57,829 --> 01:02:55,200
you know

1570
01:02:59,450 --> 01:02:57,839
criticism aside are useful because they

1571
01:03:01,549 --> 01:02:59,460
sort of appropriately prepare the

1572
01:03:03,349 --> 01:03:01,559
initiate to participate in these

1573
01:03:06,530 --> 01:03:03,359
different practices the next best thing

1574
01:03:08,930 --> 01:03:06,540
we can do is basically prepare people

1575
01:03:11,210 --> 01:03:08,940
um in a kind of meta sense for engaging

1576
01:03:13,309 --> 01:03:11,220
with these practices and making them

1577
01:03:14,990 --> 01:03:13,319
aware of basically the risks and dangers

1578
01:03:17,410 --> 01:03:15,000
associated with intensive practice

1579
01:03:20,150 --> 01:03:17,420
whether it's meditation or chaos magic

1580
01:03:21,710 --> 01:03:20,160
or the AAA or Oto or whatever the

1581
01:03:22,370 --> 01:03:21,720
lineages are

1582
01:03:24,170 --> 01:03:22,380
um

1583
01:03:25,789 --> 01:03:24,180
that like

1584
01:03:27,109 --> 01:03:25,799
um I I guess what I'm what I'm kind of

1585
01:03:28,670 --> 01:03:27,119
trying to to make this a little bit more

1586
01:03:30,289 --> 01:03:28,680
coherent what I'm trying to get at is

1587
01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:30,299
basically that

1588
01:03:34,309 --> 01:03:32,880
um even if someone is not a particular

1589
01:03:36,349 --> 01:03:34,319
believer

1590
01:03:38,809 --> 01:03:36,359
um in anything metaphysical or

1591
01:03:40,490 --> 01:03:38,819
otherworldly going on the reality is

1592
01:03:41,870 --> 01:03:40,500
that engaging in these practices in and

1593
01:03:43,849 --> 01:03:41,880
of themselves can be pretty

1594
01:03:45,890 --> 01:03:43,859
transformative they do very interesting

1595
01:03:48,410 --> 01:03:45,900
things to the Mind into the perception

1596
01:03:50,289 --> 01:03:48,420
of reality uh just by virtue of

1597
01:03:52,309 --> 01:03:50,299
practicing them

1598
01:03:54,289 --> 01:03:52,319
yeah yeah

1599
01:03:56,150 --> 01:03:54,299
um and and I think we're intentionally

1600
01:03:57,829 --> 01:03:56,160
again because we need to keep the

1601
01:03:59,630 --> 01:03:57,839
capitalist machine running we're

1602
01:04:01,329 --> 01:03:59,640
intentionally not prepared for any kind

1603
01:04:04,010 --> 01:04:01,339
of transformative experience

1604
01:04:06,230 --> 01:04:04,020
you know even mundane ones right because

1605
01:04:08,270 --> 01:04:06,240
you know talking about this idea of like

1606
01:04:10,010 --> 01:04:08,280
a transformation can happen to you like

1607
01:04:12,109 --> 01:04:10,020
again I have friends who are chronically

1608
01:04:14,630 --> 01:04:12,119
ill or got struck with long covid or

1609
01:04:17,089 --> 01:04:14,640
again if you've experienced grief and

1610
01:04:19,430 --> 01:04:17,099
you become a different person in an

1611
01:04:21,170 --> 01:04:19,440
instant and everybody else is waiting

1612
01:04:23,569 --> 01:04:21,180
for you to get back to who you were

1613
01:04:25,130 --> 01:04:23,579
right because they see it as something

1614
01:04:26,809 --> 01:04:25,140
that's wrong with your brain that you're

1615
01:04:28,370 --> 01:04:26,819
just going to get over as opposed to

1616
01:04:30,710 --> 01:04:28,380
something that has transformed your body

1617
01:04:32,329 --> 01:04:30,720
and that you are now a different person

1618
01:04:35,569 --> 01:04:32,339
because of

1619
01:04:36,770 --> 01:04:35,579
um there's no conversation about that at

1620
01:04:38,809 --> 01:04:36,780
all

1621
01:04:40,670 --> 01:04:38,819
um and I wish there would be because I

1622
01:04:43,970 --> 01:04:40,680
think it's again very empowering to go

1623
01:04:46,849 --> 01:04:43,980
on your own journey and and read and

1624
01:04:48,890 --> 01:04:46,859
practice and experiment and maybe [\h__\h]

1625
01:04:50,510 --> 01:04:48,900
up your life with ritual magic you'll

1626
01:04:52,910 --> 01:04:50,520
learn how powerful it is then it's

1627
01:04:54,910 --> 01:04:52,920
awesome it is a lot of fun [\h__\h] it up

1628
01:04:57,049 --> 01:04:54,920
that way

1629
01:04:58,670 --> 01:04:57,059
totally yes

1630
01:05:04,130 --> 01:04:58,680
yeah

1631
01:05:05,809 --> 01:05:04,140
chaos magic because of

1632
01:05:07,670 --> 01:05:05,819
um my just kind of transgressive

1633
01:05:10,370 --> 01:05:07,680
practice in general or sensibility it's

1634
01:05:11,809 --> 01:05:10,380
like yeah do try it try it go for it

1635
01:05:14,510 --> 01:05:11,819
like I don't think it should be gate

1636
01:05:16,010 --> 01:05:14,520
cups I the idea of these like again it's

1637
01:05:18,230 --> 01:05:16,020
that cult idea of like we're not going

1638
01:05:19,910 --> 01:05:18,240
to tell you about Xenu until you know

1639
01:05:23,270 --> 01:05:19,920
you're a quarter of a million you're

1640
01:05:25,250 --> 01:05:23,280
pretty clear yeah yeah exactly exactly

1641
01:05:27,049 --> 01:05:25,260
we're not going to tell you about the

1642
01:05:29,150 --> 01:05:27,059
really weird stuff until you get

1643
01:05:31,609 --> 01:05:29,160
initiated into it it's like

1644
01:05:34,609 --> 01:05:31,619
get let people know so they can sign up

1645
01:05:37,190 --> 01:05:34,619
right with consensus well and also like

1646
01:05:38,510 --> 01:05:37,200
like I mean I'm like look I I'm I'm

1647
01:05:39,950 --> 01:05:38,520
gonna go a little bit off the ranch here

1648
01:05:42,410 --> 01:05:39,960
everybody who already knows my story I

1649
01:05:45,049 --> 01:05:42,420
was like high power Tech executive blah

1650
01:05:46,970 --> 01:05:45,059
blah blah private driver private jet uh

1651
01:05:48,829 --> 01:05:46,980
and took a sabbatical and have been

1652
01:05:50,809 --> 01:05:48,839
spent the last year sitting meditation

1653
01:05:54,650 --> 01:05:50,819
Retreats attending psychedelic Retreats

1654
01:05:56,210 --> 01:05:54,660
skiing my ass off and like I I am a

1655
01:05:58,010 --> 01:05:56,220
categorically different person now than

1656
01:06:00,410 --> 01:05:58,020
I was a year ago like I am a completely

1657
01:06:02,089 --> 01:06:00,420
different person I am more myself yeah

1658
01:06:03,650 --> 01:06:02,099
um I have intensified

1659
01:06:05,150 --> 01:06:03,660
um but there's no Universe where I go

1660
01:06:06,770 --> 01:06:05,160
back to working full-time as an

1661
01:06:08,990 --> 01:06:06,780
insurance executive like that is never

1662
01:06:10,549 --> 01:06:09,000
gonna happen that that can't put that

1663
01:06:12,109 --> 01:06:10,559
Genie back in the Box

1664
01:06:14,089 --> 01:06:12,119
um and every now and then I come across

1665
01:06:15,829 --> 01:06:14,099
these like completely asinine think

1666
01:06:17,329 --> 01:06:15,839
pieces from Tech Bros about how like

1667
01:06:19,010 --> 01:06:17,339
they've watched so many Minds in their

1668
01:06:20,750 --> 01:06:19,020
generation ruined by psychedelics and

1669
01:06:23,510 --> 01:06:20,760
Buddhism and meditation because it makes

1670
01:06:25,730 --> 01:06:23,520
you lose your ambition and it's like the

1671
01:06:28,789 --> 01:06:25,740
right it is the worst it is the worst

1672
01:06:31,730 --> 01:06:28,799
the worst exactly it's the worst because

1673
01:06:33,950 --> 01:06:31,740
it you realize so much of like or

1674
01:06:36,170 --> 01:06:33,960
popular conceptions of success which of

1675
01:06:38,029 --> 01:06:36,180
course are yoked to financial success

1676
01:06:42,410 --> 01:06:38,039
material success

1677
01:06:45,410 --> 01:06:42,420
um they also rely almost totalistically

1678
01:06:48,170 --> 01:06:45,420
on a complete alienation from the self

1679
01:06:49,670 --> 01:06:48,180
in like fundamental ways right because

1680
01:06:52,549 --> 01:06:49,680
the second you're actually in touch with

1681
01:06:54,650 --> 01:06:52,559
yourself like I I will say before you

1682
01:06:57,710 --> 01:06:54,660
and God and YouTube and everyone I am

1683
01:06:59,390 --> 01:06:57,720
the most broke least stable like from

1684
01:07:01,069 --> 01:06:59,400
like a home perspective than I have ever

1685
01:07:02,809 --> 01:07:01,079
been in my entire life including when I

1686
01:07:03,950 --> 01:07:02,819
was in college and I'm categorically the

1687
01:07:06,230 --> 01:07:03,960
happiest of it

1688
01:07:09,170 --> 01:07:06,240
like like it's not even close

1689
01:07:10,430 --> 01:07:09,180
um yes exactly stand on a soapbox in the

1690
01:07:12,829 --> 01:07:10,440
street corner and tell everybody the

1691
01:07:14,630 --> 01:07:12,839
story because like uh it turns out what

1692
01:07:16,549 --> 01:07:14,640
everybody says about material wealth and

1693
01:07:18,230 --> 01:07:16,559
financial success is completely true it

1694
01:07:20,150 --> 01:07:18,240
really doesn't mean anything it doesn't

1695
01:07:21,650 --> 01:07:20,160
mean anything well it especially doesn't

1696
01:07:23,630 --> 01:07:21,660
mean anything when you're alienated from

1697
01:07:25,730 --> 01:07:23,640
your own body and that's that is that's

1698
01:07:28,250 --> 01:07:25,740
marcusa right that's it erosion

1699
01:07:30,770 --> 01:07:28,260
civilization essentially in a nutshell

1700
01:07:33,829 --> 01:07:30,780
where there is no such thing as a death

1701
01:07:35,690 --> 01:07:33,839
Instinct Thanatos is the is to destroy

1702
01:07:37,670 --> 01:07:35,700
pain and the reason we're trying to

1703
01:07:39,829 --> 01:07:37,680
destroy pain is because we are alienated

1704
01:07:42,650 --> 01:07:39,839
from arrows right we're alienated from

1705
01:07:43,670 --> 01:07:42,660
our own bodies our bodies existing in

1706
01:07:46,250 --> 01:07:43,680
the world

1707
01:07:47,750 --> 01:07:46,260
again you know all these things I didn't

1708
01:07:49,609 --> 01:07:47,760
realize at the time were part of my

1709
01:07:51,890 --> 01:07:49,619
practice like later I'm like oh yeah

1710
01:07:54,589 --> 01:07:51,900
okay this is this is all informed by the

1711
01:07:58,130 --> 01:07:54,599
same thing so I I still teach chainmail

1712
01:08:01,370 --> 01:07:58,140
classes but I used to teach more and to

1713
01:08:03,049 --> 01:08:01,380
watch people in class with pliers in

1714
01:08:04,730 --> 01:08:03,059
their hands and they're making something

1715
01:08:06,890 --> 01:08:04,740
with their own hands and they are

1716
01:08:10,250 --> 01:08:06,900
watching it come into being in real time

1717
01:08:13,069 --> 01:08:10,260
from their labor and I would just see

1718
01:08:15,349 --> 01:08:13,079
people transformed because suddenly

1719
01:08:17,209 --> 01:08:15,359
they're in their bodies they realize

1720
01:08:18,829 --> 01:08:17,219
their bodies have agency they're getting

1721
01:08:21,289 --> 01:08:18,839
pleasure from their bodies they're

1722
01:08:25,249 --> 01:08:21,299
realizing like I can make things I can

1723
01:08:26,990 --> 01:08:25,259
make this happen like transformative I

1724
01:08:29,090 --> 01:08:27,000
still remember one of the first classes

1725
01:08:31,630 --> 01:08:29,100
I ever taught

1726
01:08:34,189 --> 01:08:31,640
um there were a couple women in class

1727
01:08:38,030 --> 01:08:34,199
exactly authenticity and play play play

1728
01:08:39,769 --> 01:08:38,040
is a huge one homo ludens by Johannes I

1729
01:08:42,110 --> 01:08:39,779
think I'm pointing in the right

1730
01:08:43,490 --> 01:08:42,120
direction but plays integral to life

1731
01:08:47,209 --> 01:08:43,500
itself

1732
01:08:48,289 --> 01:08:47,219
um but yeah just uh I completely lost my

1733
01:08:50,390 --> 01:08:48,299
train of thought because I got really

1734
01:08:52,130 --> 01:08:50,400
excited no making uh making chainmail

1735
01:08:53,749 --> 01:08:52,140
and watching like people who have been

1736
01:08:55,370 --> 01:08:53,759
so dissociated from their bodies make

1737
01:08:57,530 --> 01:08:55,380
something creatively that they can

1738
01:08:59,870 --> 01:08:57,540
physically engage with in the real

1739
01:09:03,169 --> 01:08:59,880
material world it's so powerful this

1740
01:09:06,709 --> 01:09:03,179
this woman in my class she's like all

1741
01:09:08,269 --> 01:09:06,719
day I sit in front of a computer and uh

1742
01:09:09,829 --> 01:09:08,279
it's like eight hours a day I just

1743
01:09:11,090 --> 01:09:09,839
stared a screen and she looked at me

1744
01:09:13,309 --> 01:09:11,100
like right in the eyes and she's like

1745
01:09:15,289 --> 01:09:13,319
this is not how we're meant to live and

1746
01:09:17,390 --> 01:09:15,299
I this is that antithetical to Human

1747
01:09:19,370 --> 01:09:17,400
Experience completely antithetical to

1748
01:09:20,990 --> 01:09:19,380
Human Experience there is something oh

1749
01:09:24,769 --> 01:09:21,000
I'm gonna I want to say her name is

1750
01:09:26,630 --> 01:09:24,779
Renata Hiller of um I think Waldorf and

1751
01:09:27,890 --> 01:09:26,640
she was talking about how it's on

1752
01:09:30,410 --> 01:09:27,900
YouTube

1753
01:09:32,209 --> 01:09:30,420
um you know we are we are as we have

1754
01:09:34,430 --> 01:09:32,219
evolved to work with our hands to use

1755
01:09:35,749 --> 01:09:34,440
our hands like that's kind of the whole

1756
01:09:37,249 --> 01:09:35,759
point

1757
01:09:40,130 --> 01:09:37,259
um and that children will naturally

1758
01:09:42,650 --> 01:09:40,140
gravitate towards the experiential

1759
01:09:44,630 --> 01:09:42,660
and so much of our lives are just

1760
01:09:46,490 --> 01:09:44,640
plastic that's all we're doing we're

1761
01:09:48,229 --> 01:09:46,500
looking at plastic we're touching

1762
01:09:50,689 --> 01:09:48,239
plastic you know like the mouse is

1763
01:09:52,249 --> 01:09:50,699
plastic we're it's not even like using

1764
01:09:54,530 --> 01:09:52,259
plastic right we're eating these like

1765
01:09:57,169 --> 01:09:54,540
Ultra processed hyper tasty Foods

1766
01:10:00,470 --> 01:09:57,179
exactly it's and the microplastics are

1767
01:10:02,630 --> 01:10:00,480
in our blood now so right right

1768
01:10:04,669 --> 01:10:02,640
um but it just we're never connected to

1769
01:10:07,250 --> 01:10:04,679
anything and and again there's this

1770
01:10:09,530 --> 01:10:07,260
incredible power once you reconnect

1771
01:10:12,110 --> 01:10:09,540
somebody and and teach them like you can

1772
01:10:14,030 --> 01:10:12,120
actually you can do this you can use

1773
01:10:17,570 --> 01:10:14,040
your body to make a thing and to do a

1774
01:10:20,209 --> 01:10:17,580
thing again incredibly empowering

1775
01:10:21,649 --> 01:10:20,219
yes it also wakes you from the fact that

1776
01:10:24,530 --> 01:10:21,659
you are not merely just a conduit

1777
01:10:26,630 --> 01:10:24,540
through which capital flows right you're

1778
01:10:29,330 --> 01:10:26,640
not just this like vessel passing money

1779
01:10:32,090 --> 01:10:29,340
from your boss to like your mortgage

1780
01:10:34,970 --> 01:10:32,100
company and your car and your like the

1781
01:10:37,130 --> 01:10:34,980
gas company and stuff it is again I

1782
01:10:39,229 --> 01:10:37,140
think that creativity is inherently

1783
01:10:42,290 --> 01:10:39,239
radical and inherently transgressive

1784
01:10:44,810 --> 01:10:42,300
because you are saying I am affirming my

1785
01:10:47,689 --> 01:10:44,820
subjective joy to make this thing that

1786
01:10:49,550 --> 01:10:47,699
is only for me as opposed to doing

1787
01:10:52,850 --> 01:10:49,560
anything that is going to provide profit

1788
01:10:55,490 --> 01:10:52,860
for somebody else so so again our

1789
01:10:58,370 --> 01:10:55,500
creativity is incredibly radical but

1790
01:10:59,930 --> 01:10:58,380
requires you to be more connected to

1791
01:11:02,630 --> 01:10:59,940
your body and not alienated from your

1792
01:11:04,790 --> 01:11:02,640
body whereas alienation from the body is

1793
01:11:08,689 --> 01:11:04,800
what allows Capital you know capitalism

1794
01:11:10,310 --> 01:11:08,699
to be efficient yes so yes yeah I am I

1795
01:11:11,390 --> 01:11:10,320
have this like pet Theory too I mean we

1796
01:11:13,669 --> 01:11:11,400
live in

1797
01:11:15,470 --> 01:11:13,679
one of the artifacts and effects of

1798
01:11:17,330 --> 01:11:15,480
modernity is that we live in

1799
01:11:18,950 --> 01:11:17,340
environments and in circumstances that

1800
01:11:20,689 --> 01:11:18,960
basically hypersaturate our nervous

1801
01:11:23,090 --> 01:11:20,699
system all the time

1802
01:11:26,630 --> 01:11:23,100
um with screens with music with alerts

1803
01:11:28,669 --> 01:11:26,640
with Twitter notifications with food

1804
01:11:31,370 --> 01:11:28,679
um like pornography all of these things

1805
01:11:33,649 --> 01:11:31,380
like just totally

1806
01:11:34,850 --> 01:11:33,659
um drench our nervous system and brains

1807
01:11:38,630 --> 01:11:34,860
with all different chemicals all the

1808
01:11:41,510 --> 01:11:38,640
time and I'm um

1809
01:11:43,490 --> 01:11:41,520
I have this pet theory that it basically

1810
01:11:46,310 --> 01:11:43,500
drowns out all of the sort of subtle

1811
01:11:49,430 --> 01:11:46,320
somatic experiences of Being Human which

1812
01:11:51,229 --> 01:11:49,440
would be things like Intuition or even I

1813
01:11:53,870 --> 01:11:51,239
mean I I would I would even go so far as

1814
01:11:56,930 --> 01:11:53,880
to say like SCI phenomena right yes like

1815
01:11:58,669 --> 01:11:56,940
like it basically drowns out the sort of

1816
01:12:00,530 --> 01:11:58,679
subtle messages that we would typically

1817
01:12:02,270 --> 01:12:00,540
receive and be tuned into if we were

1818
01:12:03,830 --> 01:12:02,280
living in environments that weren't so

1819
01:12:07,729 --> 01:12:03,840
heavily

1820
01:12:09,470 --> 01:12:07,739
um stimulating all the time yes I I've

1821
01:12:11,930 --> 01:12:09,480
been thinking about this a lot lately

1822
01:12:15,709 --> 01:12:11,940
again I just got the ADHD diagnosis like

1823
01:12:18,729 --> 01:12:15,719
about a month ago I got mine at 34. so

1824
01:12:20,990 --> 01:12:18,739
yeah yeah right in there

1825
01:12:23,209 --> 01:12:21,000
yeah it's great it's like putting on

1826
01:12:24,649 --> 01:12:23,219
glasses for the first time right yeah I

1827
01:12:26,169 --> 01:12:24,659
always thought I just had anxiety it

1828
01:12:33,410 --> 01:12:26,179
turns out

1829
01:12:36,110 --> 01:12:33,420
your dopamine seeking brain and

1830
01:12:38,450 --> 01:12:36,120
um which okay so let's get into the

1831
01:12:40,430 --> 01:12:38,460
colonialism first of all of like ADHD

1832
01:12:43,189 --> 01:12:40,440
being neurodivergent as opposed to

1833
01:12:45,370 --> 01:12:43,199
neurotypical right yes um because again

1834
01:12:47,450 --> 01:12:45,380
having a brain that is really useful

1835
01:12:50,570 --> 01:12:47,460
when you're out and you're trying to

1836
01:12:53,750 --> 01:12:50,580
find food like can you hunt can you

1837
01:12:55,430 --> 01:12:53,760
hyper focus and can you also just pay

1838
01:12:57,050 --> 01:12:55,440
attention be hyper Vigilant and pay

1839
01:12:59,570 --> 01:12:57,060
attention to everything so you know by

1840
01:13:01,070 --> 01:12:59,580
like the grades of Blades of grass you

1841
01:13:04,070 --> 01:13:01,080
know they're like oh there's an animal

1842
01:13:06,649 --> 01:13:04,080
that way we're fine right

1843
01:13:08,990 --> 01:13:06,659
um so so again to say that like we're

1844
01:13:10,850 --> 01:13:09,000
the the Mad ones

1845
01:13:12,229 --> 01:13:10,860
but just that idea of like a nervous

1846
01:13:14,750 --> 01:13:12,239
system that's dysregulated because

1847
01:13:17,209 --> 01:13:14,760
you're more sensitive you're paying

1848
01:13:19,250 --> 01:13:17,219
attention to more things again hyper

1849
01:13:22,310 --> 01:13:19,260
vigilance plus this like Information

1850
01:13:23,450 --> 01:13:22,320
Society can be it's short circuits like

1851
01:13:25,850 --> 01:13:23,460
that's why people just end up

1852
01:13:27,830 --> 01:13:25,860
dissociating and scrolling Twitter for

1853
01:13:34,610 --> 01:13:27,840
you know hours on ends not that I found

1854
01:13:41,570 --> 01:13:38,209
it's uh it it's interesting to me too to

1855
01:13:45,290 --> 01:13:41,580
look at like nervous system disruption

1856
01:13:46,910 --> 01:13:45,300
um and how autism and complex PTSD it's

1857
01:13:49,669 --> 01:13:46,920
the same nervous system dysregulation

1858
01:13:51,830 --> 01:13:49,679
and also low-dose Naltrexone is used to

1859
01:13:54,530 --> 01:13:51,840
help regulate the nervous systems of

1860
01:13:57,830 --> 01:13:54,540
both people with Autism and

1861
01:14:00,229 --> 01:13:57,840
um and people with complex PTSD I I

1862
01:14:01,430 --> 01:14:00,239
think we need to like look again I'm

1863
01:14:05,330 --> 01:14:01,440
always like okay what are the

1864
01:14:08,330 --> 01:14:05,340
connections here yes yes and also things

1865
01:14:10,610 --> 01:14:08,340
like uh borderline personality right

1866
01:14:11,990 --> 01:14:10,620
this is also another like I feel like a

1867
01:14:14,390 --> 01:14:12,000
lot of these things almost exist on a

1868
01:14:16,189 --> 01:14:14,400
spectrum right totally so yeah I mean

1869
01:14:17,870 --> 01:14:16,199
all of the personality disorders it's

1870
01:14:19,970 --> 01:14:17,880
like okay I know we're like take all

1871
01:14:21,830 --> 01:14:19,980
those cluster B's and we divide them up

1872
01:14:24,410 --> 01:14:21,840
and and it's really just diagnostic

1873
01:14:26,630 --> 01:14:24,420
purposes for insurance but like if

1874
01:14:28,189 --> 01:14:26,640
you've ever met anybody who has

1875
01:14:29,630 --> 01:14:28,199
borderline there are narcissistic

1876
01:14:33,890 --> 01:14:29,640
elements or there are histrionic

1877
01:14:36,290 --> 01:14:33,900
elements and vice versa right and and uh

1878
01:14:38,209 --> 01:14:36,300
some of those elements are are louder

1879
01:14:40,910 --> 01:14:38,219
and stronger than others

1880
01:14:42,830 --> 01:14:40,920
um again to differentiate I see a lot of

1881
01:14:44,990 --> 01:14:42,840
these things just kind of on a spectrum

1882
01:14:47,630 --> 01:14:45,000
that again we've decided are in Little

1883
01:14:49,390 --> 01:14:47,640
Boxes and little Islands that's not how

1884
01:14:51,590 --> 01:14:49,400
that works for for

1885
01:14:53,590 --> 01:14:51,600
yeah insurance billing purposes or

1886
01:14:55,130 --> 01:14:53,600
building purposes yeah

1887
01:14:57,470 --> 01:14:55,140
exactly

1888
01:14:59,870 --> 01:14:57,480
well and we're talking about the you

1889
01:15:02,510 --> 01:14:59,880
know the way the human brain works and

1890
01:15:05,689 --> 01:15:02,520
we mentioned adaptation and evolution

1891
01:15:07,729 --> 01:15:05,699
and things like that and uh

1892
01:15:11,149 --> 01:15:07,739
you know it speaks to my experience

1893
01:15:13,130 --> 01:15:11,159
getting involved in this subject and my

1894
01:15:15,590 --> 01:15:13,140
historical experience as well

1895
01:15:18,470 --> 01:15:15,600
um based on uh yeah you know things from

1896
01:15:21,470 --> 01:15:18,480
my past that I won't go into right now I

1897
01:15:23,390 --> 01:15:21,480
am very uh critical of authority uh you

1898
01:15:24,950 --> 01:15:23,400
know I'm an anarchosyndicalist I

1899
01:15:26,930 --> 01:15:24,960
identify with chomsky's teachings

1900
01:15:31,669 --> 01:15:26,940
heavily he's I think he's the smartest

1901
01:15:33,410 --> 01:15:31,679
person on earth uh but um you know it's

1902
01:15:35,209 --> 01:15:33,420
this whole thing about

1903
01:15:39,410 --> 01:15:35,219
advertising the way people process

1904
01:15:42,110 --> 01:15:39,420
reality and how you know the primary way

1905
01:15:44,570 --> 01:15:42,120
that most people sort of check out the

1906
01:15:47,570 --> 01:15:44,580
world is through their Community

1907
01:15:49,370 --> 01:15:47,580
identity and Community identity is

1908
01:15:51,410 --> 01:15:49,380
actually prioritized on average in the

1909
01:15:53,990 --> 01:15:51,420
brain over objective information

1910
01:15:56,689 --> 01:15:54,000
processing and you know they're adaptive

1911
01:15:58,390 --> 01:15:56,699
evolutionary reasons why that needed to

1912
01:16:00,770 --> 01:15:58,400
be the case historically because

1913
01:16:03,350 --> 01:16:00,780
ostracization from your hundred person

1914
01:16:05,450 --> 01:16:03,360
close relation group would be the surest

1915
01:16:07,850 --> 01:16:05,460
way for you to die over arguing about

1916
01:16:09,350 --> 01:16:07,860
the objective reality of some kind of

1917
01:16:11,689 --> 01:16:09,360
empirical observation

1918
01:16:14,930 --> 01:16:11,699
so you know I noticed it's like you

1919
01:16:15,649 --> 01:16:14,940
can't break in really easily into these

1920
01:16:17,390 --> 01:16:15,659
um

1921
01:16:19,010 --> 01:16:17,400
like you can't bring new information in

1922
01:16:20,510 --> 01:16:19,020
very easily but you see that everywhere

1923
01:16:22,189 --> 01:16:20,520
right so

1924
01:16:26,390 --> 01:16:22,199
like have you thought about this at all

1925
01:16:29,990 --> 01:16:26,400
with pain are you actively attempting to

1926
01:16:32,750 --> 01:16:30,000
sort of like build a culture around that

1927
01:16:35,149 --> 01:16:32,760
like kind of more like active excitement

1928
01:16:37,070 --> 01:16:35,159
or is it like are you are you getting

1929
01:16:39,050 --> 01:16:37,080
into sort of the evidence-based side of

1930
01:16:41,149 --> 01:16:39,060
it at all I'm sort of getting at like

1931
01:16:44,689 --> 01:16:41,159
the underlying culture that uh we're

1932
01:16:46,189 --> 01:16:44,699
trying to build here sure so it's uh I'm

1933
01:16:48,250 --> 01:16:46,199
less interested in evidence

1934
01:16:50,689 --> 01:16:48,260
evidence-based things unless it's like

1935
01:16:52,790 --> 01:16:50,699
Shining Light on underrepresented

1936
01:16:55,250 --> 01:16:52,800
communities to say like hey they're

1937
01:16:57,350 --> 01:16:55,260
actually lots of ghost stories you know

1938
01:17:00,709 --> 01:16:57,360
featuring women or like Amanda Wilmer

1939
01:17:02,450 --> 01:17:00,719
has a book about sex workers and their

1940
01:17:04,910 --> 01:17:02,460
hauntings right

1941
01:17:06,590 --> 01:17:04,920
um so so then I'm interested in that

1942
01:17:08,510 --> 01:17:06,600
really I'm more interested in hearing

1943
01:17:10,430 --> 01:17:08,520
different ideas from different people of

1944
01:17:12,410 --> 01:17:10,440
different walks of life because again

1945
01:17:16,070 --> 01:17:12,420
radical feminism intersectional feminism

1946
01:17:18,050 --> 01:17:16,080
like every person's experience within an

1947
01:17:19,850 --> 01:17:18,060
oppressive Society is different so of

1948
01:17:21,050 --> 01:17:19,860
course everybody's experience in terms

1949
01:17:23,030 --> 01:17:21,060
of the Paranormal is is going to be

1950
01:17:25,550 --> 01:17:23,040
different and your lived experience and

1951
01:17:27,649 --> 01:17:25,560
your your home communities are going to

1952
01:17:28,910 --> 01:17:27,659
inform how you interpret these different

1953
01:17:32,450 --> 01:17:28,920
things and how you see these different

1954
01:17:34,610 --> 01:17:32,460
things so how are you so so again like

1955
01:17:36,169 --> 01:17:34,620
more diverse voices are only going to be

1956
01:17:40,250 --> 01:17:36,179
more interesting to the conversation

1957
01:17:43,490 --> 01:17:40,260
it's not just the same this you know guy

1958
01:17:45,770 --> 01:17:43,500
in a hat guy with a beard with a bald

1959
01:17:47,630 --> 01:17:45,780
guy let's hear what you know that's our

1960
01:17:50,450 --> 01:17:47,640
diversity in the field

1961
01:17:53,570 --> 01:17:50,460
I again I care about ideas and changing

1962
01:17:55,910 --> 01:17:53,580
the landscape and also again

1963
01:17:58,669 --> 01:17:55,920
can we put humans first in human

1964
01:18:02,750 --> 01:17:58,679
experiences first

1965
01:18:04,910 --> 01:18:02,760
um as opposed to again sacrificing

1966
01:18:07,970 --> 01:18:04,920
um individuals in order to you know have

1967
01:18:09,590 --> 01:18:07,980
access to disclosure faster

1968
01:18:12,770 --> 01:18:09,600
um you know you have to take a stand

1969
01:18:15,229 --> 01:18:12,780
again I think what what's primary you

1970
01:18:17,630 --> 01:18:15,239
have to take a stand against bigotry if

1971
01:18:19,750 --> 01:18:17,640
you're really committed to

1972
01:18:22,370 --> 01:18:19,760
um again anti-racist practices

1973
01:18:25,189 --> 01:18:22,380
anti-oppressive practices

1974
01:18:27,950 --> 01:18:25,199
um it's like really what's is disclosure

1975
01:18:29,209 --> 01:18:27,960
more important than like you know uh

1976
01:18:31,550 --> 01:18:29,219
people getting their rights taken away

1977
01:18:32,870 --> 01:18:31,560
like really what are you prioritizing

1978
01:18:36,350 --> 01:18:32,880
and why

1979
01:18:37,610 --> 01:18:36,360
um so again humans first

1980
01:18:39,530 --> 01:18:37,620
um and then let's hear what all the

1981
01:18:42,350 --> 01:18:39,540
humans have to say and not just

1982
01:18:44,810 --> 01:18:42,360
amplifying the same voices over and over

1983
01:18:47,390 --> 01:18:44,820
and over again

1984
01:18:50,090 --> 01:18:47,400
yeah

1985
01:18:51,950 --> 01:18:50,100
like the putting the humans first I mean

1986
01:18:54,290 --> 01:18:51,960
I agree with everything you said uh just

1987
01:18:56,870 --> 01:18:54,300
from being on Reddit so much and like

1988
01:18:58,250 --> 01:18:56,880
I'm a moderator on our UFO science and

1989
01:19:00,530 --> 01:18:58,260
quotes and some interesting

1990
01:19:02,510 --> 01:19:00,540
conversations come up in there uh you

1991
01:19:04,970 --> 01:19:02,520
know I'm hearing the arguments you know

1992
01:19:07,189 --> 01:19:04,980
it's like when disclosure happens free

1993
01:19:09,410 --> 01:19:07,199
energy and like everybody's gonna be

1994
01:19:13,010 --> 01:19:09,420
safe from everything so we are putting

1995
01:19:15,530 --> 01:19:13,020
humans first right so like this is like

1996
01:19:17,870 --> 01:19:15,540
Elon Musk talking about like effective

1997
01:19:19,370 --> 01:19:17,880
altruism right this is like humans 10

1998
01:19:20,990 --> 01:19:19,380
000 years in the future but forget the

1999
01:19:23,209 --> 01:19:21,000
human suffering now we're just like

2000
01:19:25,850 --> 01:19:23,219
chaff for the machine anyway sorry

2001
01:19:28,850 --> 01:19:25,860
Campbell I'm all fiery today I spent all

2002
01:19:30,950 --> 01:19:28,860
this time outside and like I have energy

2003
01:19:32,870 --> 01:19:30,960
at 10 o'clock at night yeah no yeah

2004
01:19:34,729 --> 01:19:32,880
utilitarian or consequentialist style

2005
01:19:37,010 --> 01:19:34,739
reasoning is uh terrifying for that

2006
01:19:39,229 --> 01:19:37,020
reason like you know it's a Stalin quote

2007
01:19:40,970 --> 01:19:39,239
of you know single death is a tragedy

2008
01:19:44,030 --> 01:19:40,980
million is a statistic he allowed his

2009
01:19:45,910 --> 01:19:44,040
own son to die in a death camp so you

2010
01:19:52,010 --> 01:19:45,920
know it's like uh

2011
01:19:52,020 --> 01:19:56,590
God where was I going

2012
01:20:02,810 --> 01:20:00,110
again the human first right like like if

2013
01:20:05,810 --> 01:20:02,820
it's people people are having these

2014
01:20:09,169 --> 01:20:05,820
experiences these these experiences are

2015
01:20:10,850 --> 01:20:09,179
only known because of Observers that's

2016
01:20:14,930 --> 01:20:10,860
it right that's how we have most of

2017
01:20:17,510 --> 01:20:14,940
these UFO stories so so if you're not or

2018
01:20:20,209 --> 01:20:17,520
ghost stories or any of that right an

2019
01:20:22,790 --> 01:20:20,219
observer saw the thing and now the

2020
01:20:25,189 --> 01:20:22,800
Observer is talking about it

2021
01:20:26,890 --> 01:20:25,199
um so so you have to put people first

2022
01:20:29,990 --> 01:20:26,900
and and again

2023
01:20:33,550 --> 01:20:30,000
it's true I love it right it's also nice

2024
01:20:40,810 --> 01:20:33,560
to talk to another woman sorry guys

2025
01:20:43,250 --> 01:20:40,820
yes sorry it's true I mean yes uh

2026
01:20:45,229 --> 01:20:43,260
yeah just it's

2027
01:20:48,709 --> 01:20:45,239
um

2028
01:20:50,870 --> 01:20:48,719
I I find it really hard again and again

2029
01:20:53,090 --> 01:20:50,880
I am very much informed by feminist

2030
01:20:56,810 --> 01:20:53,100
discourse by marcuza

2031
01:20:58,430 --> 01:20:56,820
what can we do to allow people to

2032
01:21:01,250 --> 01:20:58,440
reconnect with their bodies with their

2033
01:21:04,130 --> 01:21:01,260
Eros and be real human beings having

2034
01:21:06,890 --> 01:21:04,140
real experiences as opposed to again

2035
01:21:08,930 --> 01:21:06,900
cogs and capitalist machine

2036
01:21:11,689 --> 01:21:08,940
um what can we do to reconnect people

2037
01:21:13,970 --> 01:21:11,699
and and the for me it's reconnecting

2038
01:21:15,350 --> 01:21:13,980
people with their Joy when when somebody

2039
01:21:16,729 --> 01:21:15,360
wants to talk about something in a

2040
01:21:18,709 --> 01:21:16,739
paranormal field it's usually because

2041
01:21:20,390 --> 01:21:18,719
they're really excited about it I love

2042
01:21:22,130 --> 01:21:20,400
hearing people talk about the things

2043
01:21:24,290 --> 01:21:22,140
that they're nerdy about like that's

2044
01:21:27,290 --> 01:21:24,300
exciting to me

2045
01:21:29,450 --> 01:21:27,300
um so giving space for Joy for pan

2046
01:21:32,630 --> 01:21:29,460
Paragon for both years so far the the

2047
01:21:34,970 --> 01:21:32,640
opening panel is usually like a very

2048
01:21:36,830 --> 01:21:34,980
specific structured Round Table that's

2049
01:21:39,169 --> 01:21:36,840
talking about like

2050
01:21:41,689 --> 01:21:39,179
um you know diversity or you know

2051
01:21:44,510 --> 01:21:41,699
feeling excluded and racism and all of

2052
01:21:46,250 --> 01:21:44,520
that the only people I ever invite are

2053
01:21:48,110 --> 01:21:46,260
people who have spoken about that

2054
01:21:49,729 --> 01:21:48,120
publicly or want to speak about that

2055
01:21:52,790 --> 01:21:49,739
publicly because I don't want to

2056
01:21:55,910 --> 01:21:52,800
fetishize someone else's suffering like

2057
01:21:57,950 --> 01:21:55,920
there is a lot of like suffering porn

2058
01:21:59,870 --> 01:21:57,960
that goes around where people who are

2059
01:22:01,729 --> 01:21:59,880
marginalized get trotted out by white

2060
01:22:03,950 --> 01:22:01,739
people so they can they can talk about

2061
01:22:07,550 --> 01:22:03,960
their stories and somehow humanize them

2062
01:22:09,830 --> 01:22:07,560
and like that a it doesn't work it just

2063
01:22:12,169 --> 01:22:09,840
does it also serves like a sacrificial

2064
01:22:15,709 --> 01:22:12,179
lamb for all the white people right so

2065
01:22:17,930 --> 01:22:15,719
let's assuage our guilt by allowing your

2066
01:22:19,850 --> 01:22:17,940
person of color to share their story yes

2067
01:22:21,709 --> 01:22:19,860
yeah we'll listen to their persons

2068
01:22:23,930 --> 01:22:21,719
that's exactly it because if we listen

2069
01:22:26,209 --> 01:22:23,940
we don't have to actually do any thing

2070
01:22:28,610 --> 01:22:26,219
that's exactly right this is liberalism

2071
01:22:31,910 --> 01:22:28,620
in a nutshell man I mean it is exactly

2072
01:22:35,390 --> 01:22:31,920
yes so so what are you doing and I think

2073
01:22:37,610 --> 01:22:35,400
it's way more important to highlight the

2074
01:22:39,530 --> 01:22:37,620
joy of people who are marginalized

2075
01:22:41,149 --> 01:22:39,540
because that's I'd rather you have an

2076
01:22:43,010 --> 01:22:41,159
empathetic connection with somebody that

2077
01:22:45,050 --> 01:22:43,020
way hopefully if you are racist or

2078
01:22:47,510 --> 01:22:45,060
transphobic or anything like that you

2079
01:22:50,390 --> 01:22:47,520
can see the humanity and that love in

2080
01:22:53,030 --> 01:22:50,400
that person and hopefully be transformed

2081
01:22:54,890 --> 01:22:53,040
will that happen I have no idea am I

2082
01:22:57,470 --> 01:22:54,900
going to try yeah of course because

2083
01:22:59,209 --> 01:22:57,480
again what's the point otherwise if

2084
01:23:02,270 --> 01:22:59,219
you're not trying to make life better

2085
01:23:04,250 --> 01:23:02,280
for people what are you what are you

2086
01:23:06,890 --> 01:23:04,260
doing

2087
01:23:09,709 --> 01:23:06,900
yeah yeah well this speaks to something

2088
01:23:11,990 --> 01:23:09,719
that I've been considering recently

2089
01:23:14,450 --> 01:23:12,000
um with the UFO subject

2090
01:23:16,189 --> 01:23:14,460
very specifically it's an unusual one in

2091
01:23:19,130 --> 01:23:16,199
the Paranormal field because of the

2092
01:23:21,350 --> 01:23:19,140
historical government attention like all

2093
01:23:23,149 --> 01:23:21,360
this stuff uh with the Declassified

2094
01:23:24,649 --> 01:23:23,159
reports and all this stuff

2095
01:23:26,810 --> 01:23:24,659
um and uh

2096
01:23:30,050 --> 01:23:26,820
I get a strong sense on the UFO side

2097
01:23:33,290 --> 01:23:30,060
this is my personal opinion that

2098
01:23:35,270 --> 01:23:33,300
there may be I mean I mean it's not even

2099
01:23:37,510 --> 01:23:35,280
about my opinion like the historical

2100
01:23:39,470 --> 01:23:37,520
Declassified reports we have available

2101
01:23:41,209 --> 01:23:39,480
suggests that

2102
01:23:43,970 --> 01:23:41,219
to the extent that there is a physical

2103
01:23:46,189 --> 01:23:43,980
phenomenon being observed it may be some

2104
01:23:47,810 --> 01:23:46,199
kind of ball lightning phenomenon that's

2105
01:23:50,330 --> 01:23:47,820
U.S Air Force

2106
01:23:52,610 --> 01:23:50,340
um CIA and UK Ministry of Defense

2107
01:23:55,189 --> 01:23:52,620
internal reports to their leadership

2108
01:23:57,050 --> 01:23:55,199
and then in the public realm we have a

2109
01:23:59,209 --> 01:23:57,060
variety of peer-reviewed papers and just

2110
01:24:01,250 --> 01:23:59,219
in 2014 ball lightning was verified to

2111
01:24:03,530 --> 01:24:01,260
exist objectively uh in physical review

2112
01:24:05,450 --> 01:24:03,540
letters cyanail Optical and spectral

2113
01:24:08,030 --> 01:24:05,460
characteristics of all lightning so like

2114
01:24:09,950 --> 01:24:08,040
to the extent that there may that you

2115
01:24:11,930 --> 01:24:09,960
know there is something physically being

2116
01:24:13,850 --> 01:24:11,940
observed

2117
01:24:16,910 --> 01:24:13,860
and then those people get confused and

2118
01:24:21,290 --> 01:24:16,920
are like then kind of being put into the

2119
01:24:23,810 --> 01:24:21,300
broader uh sort of sphere of all of it

2120
01:24:25,610 --> 01:24:23,820
how do you separate it's like

2121
01:24:27,050 --> 01:24:25,620
do those experiences like kind of

2122
01:24:28,490 --> 01:24:27,060
invalidate one another like if somebody

2123
01:24:29,630 --> 01:24:28,500
had a genuinely traumatic experience

2124
01:24:31,310 --> 01:24:29,640
that they're interpreting through like

2125
01:24:32,930 --> 01:24:31,320
Abduction is it like

2126
01:24:34,550 --> 01:24:32,940
I'm wondering if it's getting like that

2127
01:24:35,750 --> 01:24:34,560
needs to be like it feels like it needs

2128
01:24:38,330 --> 01:24:35,760
to be a separate thing from like someone

2129
01:24:39,410 --> 01:24:38,340
observing not a phenomenon in the sky or

2130
01:24:41,209 --> 01:24:39,420
something and

2131
01:24:42,950 --> 01:24:41,219
it's not relevant like applying the

2132
01:24:45,050 --> 01:24:42,960
science in that way to extricate those

2133
01:24:46,610 --> 01:24:45,060
things to focus on the human more

2134
01:24:49,250 --> 01:24:46,620
specifically I

2135
01:24:51,590 --> 01:24:49,260
I think so yes I mean especially if

2136
01:24:53,390 --> 01:24:51,600
because there are there are actual like

2137
01:24:54,890 --> 01:24:53,400
material things that we still don't

2138
01:24:56,870 --> 01:24:54,900
necessarily have a handle on again

2139
01:24:58,850 --> 01:24:56,880
language research methodology class if

2140
01:25:01,189 --> 01:24:58,860
you're actually doing science you never

2141
01:25:03,649 --> 01:25:01,199
prove anything you only disprove and you

2142
01:25:05,510 --> 01:25:03,659
fail to disprove you should always have

2143
01:25:07,970 --> 01:25:05,520
this mentality of working with the best

2144
01:25:10,490 --> 01:25:07,980
best data that I currently am able to

2145
01:25:12,830 --> 01:25:10,500
have in this moment right

2146
01:25:14,990 --> 01:25:12,840
um and so if if you can find out like

2147
01:25:17,330 --> 01:25:15,000
hey ball lightning actually exists and

2148
01:25:19,130 --> 01:25:17,340
and it could be this phenomenon I think

2149
01:25:20,510 --> 01:25:19,140
it's really valuable to try to identify

2150
01:25:22,310 --> 01:25:20,520
what these things are and to try to

2151
01:25:23,750 --> 01:25:22,320
categorize them like again I'm I'm

2152
01:25:25,790 --> 01:25:23,760
concerned about like the human element

2153
01:25:27,830 --> 01:25:25,800
in these things but there if there is a

2154
01:25:30,530 --> 01:25:27,840
scientific explanation and it is mundane

2155
01:25:31,669 --> 01:25:30,540
again I think it's really cool when I

2156
01:25:34,610 --> 01:25:31,679
find out about some like weather

2157
01:25:35,990 --> 01:25:34,620
phenomenon or you know any kind of like

2158
01:25:38,090 --> 01:25:36,000
Earth formation I didn't know about

2159
01:25:40,250 --> 01:25:38,100
before because like oh the science is

2160
01:25:41,810 --> 01:25:40,260
actually pretty neat like the world is

2161
01:25:43,490 --> 01:25:41,820
cool there are things happening that I'm

2162
01:25:44,689 --> 01:25:43,500
not aware of or didn't conceptualize

2163
01:25:46,070 --> 01:25:44,699
before

2164
01:25:50,030 --> 01:25:46,080
um we shouldn't be afraid of things

2165
01:25:52,189 --> 01:25:50,040
being debunked because like

2166
01:25:53,810 --> 01:25:52,199
you know the like the scientists figured

2167
01:25:55,790 --> 01:25:53,820
out you can induce essentially a

2168
01:25:58,550 --> 01:25:55,800
near-death experience right yeah

2169
01:26:00,649 --> 01:25:58,560
ketamine yeah right of that too but you

2170
01:26:02,750 --> 01:26:00,659
could actually like apply

2171
01:26:04,610 --> 01:26:02,760
um like with certain electrodes like to

2172
01:26:07,370 --> 01:26:04,620
the brain and you light up certain spots

2173
01:26:09,470 --> 01:26:07,380
people see a tunnel people see a light

2174
01:26:10,850 --> 01:26:09,480
does that mean that's what is happening

2175
01:26:13,970 --> 01:26:10,860
with all the people who have near-death

2176
01:26:15,770 --> 01:26:13,980
experiences could be or could it just be

2177
01:26:17,390 --> 01:26:15,780
like the way that

2178
01:26:18,890 --> 01:26:17,400
um our brain interprets a particular

2179
01:26:20,570 --> 01:26:18,900
thing that's happening and that can

2180
01:26:22,250 --> 01:26:20,580
happen when some when these parts of the

2181
01:26:24,169 --> 01:26:22,260
brain get lit up or when you have a

2182
01:26:27,110 --> 01:26:24,179
near-death experience

2183
01:26:28,729 --> 01:26:27,120
um I again I I think knowing the science

2184
01:26:30,649 --> 01:26:28,739
behind things is only more helpful

2185
01:26:32,930 --> 01:26:30,659
because we can figure out what we don't

2186
01:26:35,330 --> 01:26:32,940
know then and then we can have those

2187
01:26:37,790 --> 01:26:35,340
Explorations too

2188
01:26:40,010 --> 01:26:37,800
yeah well put that yeah focus in on what

2189
01:26:43,490 --> 01:26:40,020
we don't know and that helps the people

2190
01:26:49,970 --> 01:26:46,070
the materialists the idealists we can

2191
01:26:52,070 --> 01:26:49,980
all get along hey exactly exactly it's

2192
01:26:56,470 --> 01:26:52,080
just you know your Lane right and then

2193
01:26:56,480 --> 01:27:01,070
yeah yes

2194
01:27:06,129 --> 01:27:03,649
Louise we haven't heard much from you do

2195
01:27:08,510 --> 01:27:06,139
you have any uh thing you'd like to

2196
01:27:10,550 --> 01:27:08,520
throw out there I know the last time I

2197
01:27:13,010 --> 01:27:10,560
asked you if you had anything to say you

2198
01:27:17,330 --> 01:27:13,020
uh were a little bit uh

2199
01:27:19,970 --> 01:27:18,890
um I was curious actually because we've

2200
01:27:21,649 --> 01:27:19,980
been talking like a little bit we didn't

2201
01:27:23,330 --> 01:27:21,659
get into the history of the occult much

2202
01:27:25,310 --> 01:27:23,340
but

2203
01:27:28,490 --> 01:27:25,320
um I was wondering if you could sort of

2204
01:27:32,629 --> 01:27:28,500
just sort of touch a little bit on the

2205
01:27:35,629 --> 01:27:32,639
association with the current like kind

2206
01:27:38,510 --> 01:27:35,639
of like fascistic elements within the

2207
01:27:40,689 --> 01:27:38,520
UFO and kind of a cult Community

2208
01:27:45,050 --> 01:27:40,699
um and sort of your take

2209
01:27:48,229 --> 01:27:45,060
yeah yeah fascist creep it happens it

2210
01:27:51,350 --> 01:27:48,239
happens everywhere it happens everywhere

2211
01:27:52,850 --> 01:27:51,360
um I I think again people who are more

2212
01:27:55,790 --> 01:27:52,860
steep in this than I am have talked

2213
01:27:58,370 --> 01:27:55,800
about like the crunchy hippie mom to

2214
01:28:01,729 --> 01:27:58,380
alt-right pipeline

2215
01:28:03,910 --> 01:28:01,739
um I I think if you have a certain

2216
01:28:06,590 --> 01:28:03,920
sensibility you need to be careful right

2217
01:28:08,450 --> 01:28:06,600
I again aside from being an aquarius

2218
01:28:10,550 --> 01:28:08,460
aside from having ADHD was raised by

2219
01:28:13,490 --> 01:28:10,560
polish immigrants who just don't trust

2220
01:28:15,709 --> 01:28:13,500
anybody right so there was this idea of

2221
01:28:17,570 --> 01:28:15,719
like okay you hear something but is that

2222
01:28:20,450 --> 01:28:17,580
what's really going on

2223
01:28:23,390 --> 01:28:20,460
so I grew up with that right so I'm

2224
01:28:26,570 --> 01:28:23,400
always any any news story anything I'm

2225
01:28:28,610 --> 01:28:26,580
like is that what's really going on

2226
01:28:31,970 --> 01:28:28,620
um but I have the same reaction when

2227
01:28:34,510 --> 01:28:31,980
people tell me like okay so JFK is

2228
01:28:37,310 --> 01:28:34,520
coming back I was like all right

2229
01:28:39,590 --> 01:28:37,320
like I'm as stressful of like all people

2230
01:28:41,750 --> 01:28:39,600
who have claims to reality

2231
01:28:43,370 --> 01:28:41,760
and that like the one true knowledge of

2232
01:28:46,129 --> 01:28:43,380
reality

2233
01:28:48,590 --> 01:28:46,139
um but but the other side of that is

2234
01:28:50,390 --> 01:28:48,600
like if you question like okay once you

2235
01:28:51,709 --> 01:28:50,400
see like structures gonna get blown

2236
01:28:53,750 --> 01:28:51,719
apart and you're like oh I don't need to

2237
01:28:56,270 --> 01:28:53,760
have faith in these things anymore or I

2238
01:28:57,709 --> 01:28:56,280
don't trust these things anymore and

2239
01:29:00,110 --> 01:28:57,719
then people are like oh well you know

2240
01:29:03,649 --> 01:29:00,120
what but actually this is true

2241
01:29:05,390 --> 01:29:03,659
like once you start deconstructing you

2242
01:29:08,410 --> 01:29:05,400
can end up going you can end up getting

2243
01:29:11,030 --> 01:29:08,420
LED down because all of these alt-right

2244
01:29:13,129 --> 01:29:11,040
fascistic this is all intentional

2245
01:29:14,629 --> 01:29:13,139
infiltration of these spaces like this

2246
01:29:16,070 --> 01:29:14,639
doesn't happen on accident it's not

2247
01:29:17,450 --> 01:29:16,080
happening on accident because it's

2248
01:29:20,570 --> 01:29:17,460
happening everywhere

2249
01:29:22,430 --> 01:29:20,580
that that is a specific choice that is

2250
01:29:25,129 --> 01:29:22,440
happening

2251
01:29:27,470 --> 01:29:25,139
um but you you have these people who

2252
01:29:29,390 --> 01:29:27,480
like again like with Xeno or Scientology

2253
01:29:30,530 --> 01:29:29,400
it starts with something you can kind of

2254
01:29:33,649 --> 01:29:30,540
access

2255
01:29:35,750 --> 01:29:33,659
oh okay yeah I can see I can see that

2256
01:29:38,330 --> 01:29:35,760
like you know like yeah I don't trust

2257
01:29:40,070 --> 01:29:38,340
big Pharma because I know how much money

2258
01:29:43,010 --> 01:29:40,080
these Executives make right so I'm gonna

2259
01:29:44,930 --> 01:29:43,020
look up holistic ways of healing

2260
01:29:48,110 --> 01:29:44,940
and then though you know again those

2261
01:29:49,970 --> 01:29:48,120
spaces have those like essential oil MLM

2262
01:29:52,910 --> 01:29:49,980
spaces are being infiltrated by people

2263
01:29:55,550 --> 01:29:52,920
are like well let me tell you what's in

2264
01:29:57,110 --> 01:29:55,560
the water or what's in vaccines and oh

2265
01:29:59,030 --> 01:29:57,120
well if you believe the vaccine thing

2266
01:30:01,010 --> 01:29:59,040
let me tell you about the bilderbergs

2267
01:30:03,169 --> 01:30:01,020
that have uh manufactured this whole

2268
01:30:05,510 --> 01:30:03,179
vaccine it's just like constantly

2269
01:30:07,669 --> 01:30:05,520
pushing to see how far people will go

2270
01:30:09,350 --> 01:30:07,679
down this road

2271
01:30:12,169 --> 01:30:09,360
um and again when you have a group of

2272
01:30:14,149 --> 01:30:12,179
people who have a certain uh level of

2273
01:30:16,129 --> 01:30:14,159
trauma which I absolutely think people

2274
01:30:18,950 --> 01:30:16,139
in these alternative spaces do because

2275
01:30:21,229 --> 01:30:18,960
there's again you realize that you don't

2276
01:30:23,689 --> 01:30:21,239
fit with whatever Society is telling you

2277
01:30:27,470 --> 01:30:23,699
is good or right and you want something

2278
01:30:29,570 --> 01:30:27,480
else so I mean especially people who end

2279
01:30:32,270 --> 01:30:29,580
up being witches or practicing magic in

2280
01:30:34,850 --> 01:30:32,280
many cases like marginalized people who

2281
01:30:36,530 --> 01:30:34,860
felt on the fringes and wanted access to

2282
01:30:39,290 --> 01:30:36,540
power in the only way they could which

2283
01:30:42,790 --> 01:30:39,300
is outside of mainstream

2284
01:30:45,410 --> 01:30:42,800
and and so then then if you start like

2285
01:30:47,030 --> 01:30:45,420
you know so I know you found all this

2286
01:30:50,030 --> 01:30:47,040
power and Magic

2287
01:30:52,250 --> 01:30:50,040
turns out it's because you're white and

2288
01:30:54,050 --> 01:30:52,260
and like and then you're like opening up

2289
01:30:56,930 --> 01:30:54,060
this door and let me tell you the runes

2290
01:30:59,750 --> 01:30:56,940
are for white people and and and

2291
01:31:01,490 --> 01:30:59,760
suddenly it's like your idea of

2292
01:31:03,189 --> 01:31:01,500
spiritual Supremacy is getting wrapped

2293
01:31:06,229 --> 01:31:03,199
up in racial Supremacy which is

2294
01:31:08,390 --> 01:31:06,239
furthering a political agenda that you

2295
01:31:09,169 --> 01:31:08,400
might not really be aware of

2296
01:31:12,410 --> 01:31:09,179
um

2297
01:31:15,169 --> 01:31:12,420
again it's uh there's a person Professor

2298
01:31:17,149 --> 01:31:15,179
Wham she is much more steeped in this

2299
01:31:20,030 --> 01:31:17,159
subject than I am

2300
01:31:22,970 --> 01:31:20,040
um again it is it has been a fascist

2301
01:31:25,310 --> 01:31:22,980
infiltration it really in order to

2302
01:31:28,129 --> 01:31:25,320
corrupt like spiritual spaces and get

2303
01:31:30,050 --> 01:31:28,139
people to fulfill their political agenda

2304
01:31:32,149 --> 01:31:30,060
I to me that kind of misses the point

2305
01:31:33,470 --> 01:31:32,159
again humans first

2306
01:31:36,290 --> 01:31:33,480
um as soon as you start seeing other

2307
01:31:37,550 --> 01:31:36,300
people is not human or sub-human you've

2308
01:31:39,169 --> 01:31:37,560
missed the point

2309
01:31:43,129 --> 01:31:39,179
and I also don't have faith in your

2310
01:31:49,310 --> 01:31:43,139
ability to do anything magical as well

2311
01:31:54,110 --> 01:31:50,870
well I think that was pretty solid

2312
01:31:59,030 --> 01:31:55,430
don't have anything to complain about

2313
01:32:02,570 --> 01:32:00,890
I'm an only child so I spent a lot of

2314
01:32:04,490 --> 01:32:02,580
time just sitting around and thinking

2315
01:32:07,850 --> 01:32:04,500
about things

2316
01:32:10,550 --> 01:32:07,860
yeah that's what we do here that's great

2317
01:32:15,470 --> 01:32:10,560
um that that sort of a spiritual

2318
01:32:19,010 --> 01:32:15,480
Eugenics aspect is like an inherent

2319
01:32:21,590 --> 01:32:19,020
tendency or is it just a potentiality

2320
01:32:23,750 --> 01:32:21,600
I I think it's just a potentiality and I

2321
01:32:25,669 --> 01:32:23,760
think again it is very much informed by

2322
01:32:27,350 --> 01:32:25,679
the fact that we live in a system a

2323
01:32:30,950 --> 01:32:27,360
society built on and sustained by

2324
01:32:34,370 --> 01:32:30,960
oppression so I I think unless again

2325
01:32:35,930 --> 01:32:34,380
this is why I get political or why I you

2326
01:32:39,110 --> 01:32:35,940
know talk about anti-oppressive

2327
01:32:40,490 --> 01:32:39,120
political practice because if you're not

2328
01:32:42,890 --> 01:32:40,500
aware of the ways in which you have

2329
01:32:45,550 --> 01:32:42,900
internalized systems of Oppression and

2330
01:32:48,770 --> 01:32:45,560
repression you don't know that you're

2331
01:32:50,930 --> 01:32:48,780
reproducing them in your own practice I

2332
01:32:54,410 --> 01:32:50,940
see a lot again in terms of occult

2333
01:32:57,350 --> 01:32:54,420
practice a lot of witches who are really

2334
01:33:00,110 --> 01:32:57,360
just rehashing their Evangelical

2335
01:33:01,910 --> 01:33:00,120
upbringing and talking about like you

2336
01:33:04,010 --> 01:33:01,920
can't do certain types of magic because

2337
01:33:06,169 --> 01:33:04,020
the threefold law and you're going to

2338
01:33:08,030 --> 01:33:06,179
get punished and all that it's like that

2339
01:33:10,250 --> 01:33:08,040
sounds a little sounds a little Old

2340
01:33:13,490 --> 01:33:10,260
Testament to me like it's this really

2341
01:33:16,850 --> 01:33:13,500
like again this idea why does this

2342
01:33:20,330 --> 01:33:16,860
practice so resemble morally like what

2343
01:33:22,990 --> 01:33:20,340
you just came from right

2344
01:33:25,250 --> 01:33:23,000
um so I I think you just recall like

2345
01:33:27,110 --> 01:33:25,260
magic a good magical practice I think

2346
01:33:28,669 --> 01:33:27,120
requires having an aware of these social

2347
01:33:29,950 --> 01:33:28,679
things

2348
01:33:33,470 --> 01:33:29,960
um

2349
01:33:35,750 --> 01:33:33,480
unfortunately again like that like

2350
01:33:37,970 --> 01:33:35,760
Nietzsche there's a certain like

2351
01:33:40,970 --> 01:33:37,980
Nietzsche Crowley

2352
01:33:43,729 --> 01:33:40,980
um pipeline of like guys who think that

2353
01:33:45,470 --> 01:33:43,739
they're just like the best boy and

2354
01:33:47,810 --> 01:33:45,480
they're the center of the universe and

2355
01:33:50,810 --> 01:33:47,820
develop a whole magical system centering

2356
01:33:52,129 --> 01:33:50,820
themselves you know and it's like okay

2357
01:33:54,530 --> 01:33:52,139
again I think you've missed the point

2358
01:33:56,750 --> 01:33:54,540
right you're just taking this idea of

2359
01:33:58,669 --> 01:33:56,760
this like that there's this Golden Child

2360
01:34:01,310 --> 01:33:58,679
that needs to be worshiped you've just

2361
01:34:03,470 --> 01:34:01,320
made it you as opposed to like Rich guys

2362
01:34:04,430 --> 01:34:03,480
in the Silicon Valley

2363
01:34:07,010 --> 01:34:04,440
um

2364
01:34:08,930 --> 01:34:07,020
I don't know I I I I don't think it

2365
01:34:12,530 --> 01:34:08,940
inherently does but again if you're just

2366
01:34:13,910 --> 01:34:12,540
reproducing the same social mores I

2367
01:34:17,810 --> 01:34:13,920
think it's going to in one way or

2368
01:34:20,810 --> 01:34:19,310
interesting think about like the modern

2369
01:34:23,870 --> 01:34:20,820
practice of magic is something I brought

2370
01:34:25,669 --> 01:34:23,880
up with uh Marco that um because I have

2371
01:34:27,470 --> 01:34:25,679
an intricate Paradise land like small

2372
01:34:29,450 --> 01:34:27,480
part but Icelandic and so I have an

2373
01:34:32,570 --> 01:34:29,460
interest in the sagas and those are one

2374
01:34:36,169 --> 01:34:32,580
of the best sources for the historic you

2375
01:34:37,550 --> 01:34:36,179
know practice of various magic rituals

2376
01:34:41,510 --> 01:34:37,560
um because they're describing them as

2377
01:34:43,729 --> 01:34:41,520
they occurred essentially and uh you

2378
01:34:46,129 --> 01:34:43,739
know I was talking about how the actual

2379
01:34:48,169 --> 01:34:46,139
like literal historical practice of

2380
01:34:50,090 --> 01:34:48,179
magic that traced back you know for

2381
01:34:51,770 --> 01:34:50,100
whatever but I don't know how many

2382
01:34:53,870 --> 01:34:51,780
hundred thousand years I don't know

2383
01:34:55,189 --> 01:34:53,880
whatever tens of thousands of years uh

2384
01:34:58,910 --> 01:34:55,199
when humans were practicing this stuff

2385
01:35:01,910 --> 01:34:58,920
like in northern Europe in whatever it

2386
01:35:04,850 --> 01:35:01,920
literally got entirely eliminated like

2387
01:35:08,149 --> 01:35:04,860
there were no there's no unbroken chain

2388
01:35:10,189 --> 01:35:08,159
of magic practice of those rituals they

2389
01:35:12,590 --> 01:35:10,199
eliminated them all to the most remote

2390
01:35:15,229 --> 01:35:12,600
Valley in Northern Norway it's stunning

2391
01:35:17,390 --> 01:35:15,239
the church did such a powerful job and

2392
01:35:18,350 --> 01:35:17,400
so it's like it makes me like think

2393
01:35:20,689 --> 01:35:18,360
about

2394
01:35:22,910 --> 01:35:20,699
the deeper part that you're sort of

2395
01:35:24,290 --> 01:35:22,920
we're describing with chaos magic I was

2396
01:35:26,090 --> 01:35:24,300
talking with Leah right before the show

2397
01:35:27,649 --> 01:35:26,100
very briefly but saying like you know

2398
01:35:29,990 --> 01:35:27,659
never thought about magic before but

2399
01:35:31,910 --> 01:35:30,000
like the fact that there's a way of sort

2400
01:35:33,649 --> 01:35:31,920
of doing something that magic but it's

2401
01:35:36,110 --> 01:35:33,659
like a ritual practice that your

2402
01:35:37,850 --> 01:35:36,120
ancestors did for like tens of thousands

2403
01:35:39,350 --> 01:35:37,860
of years like like it's sort of like

2404
01:35:41,930 --> 01:35:39,360
Louise was sort of suggesting with like

2405
01:35:43,550 --> 01:35:41,940
an inherent element like even though I'm

2406
01:35:46,970 --> 01:35:43,560
an atheist kept all that stuff like I'm

2407
01:35:50,510 --> 01:35:46,980
drawn in some sense to practicing the

2408
01:35:54,890 --> 01:35:50,520
ritual purely as a way of like communing

2409
01:35:55,850 --> 01:35:54,900
with my like psychological ancestry or

2410
01:35:57,590 --> 01:35:55,860
something

2411
01:36:00,649 --> 01:35:57,600
um yes is that kind of what you're

2412
01:36:04,189 --> 01:36:00,659
plugging into with chaos magic uh 100

2413
01:36:05,270 --> 01:36:04,199
yes yes okay cool because it's to me

2414
01:36:07,129 --> 01:36:05,280
again

2415
01:36:10,490 --> 01:36:07,139
um like so many people claim like

2416
01:36:12,890 --> 01:36:10,500
lineage and that it matters right

2417
01:36:14,810 --> 01:36:12,900
and so and it's like all of that is

2418
01:36:16,790 --> 01:36:14,820
reconstruction right it's reconstruction

2419
01:36:18,470 --> 01:36:16,800
that you're taking too seriously and in

2420
01:36:19,790 --> 01:36:18,480
chaos magic you know you're

2421
01:36:21,229 --> 01:36:19,800
reconstructing you know you're

2422
01:36:22,970 --> 01:36:21,239
constructing and that's the point

2423
01:36:26,570 --> 01:36:22,980
because it's you and it's informed by

2424
01:36:29,149 --> 01:36:26,580
you and you're doing again it's not what

2425
01:36:31,250 --> 01:36:29,159
the ritual is it's that you are engaging

2426
01:36:32,930 --> 01:36:31,260
in ritual belief right that you are

2427
01:36:34,250 --> 01:36:32,940
engaging in prayer it doesn't matter who

2428
01:36:36,530 --> 01:36:34,260
you're praying to

2429
01:36:38,689 --> 01:36:36,540
um or ritual action does it matter if

2430
01:36:41,870 --> 01:36:38,699
you actually believe in a thing like I

2431
01:36:44,030 --> 01:36:41,880
think you're tapping into that greater

2432
01:36:47,149 --> 01:36:44,040
Human Experience that historical Human

2433
01:36:50,209 --> 01:36:47,159
Experience like to me it's really

2434
01:36:52,550 --> 01:36:50,219
beautiful to see like

2435
01:36:55,070 --> 01:36:52,560
like at the Louvre they cut out I mean

2436
01:36:57,590 --> 01:36:55,080
we can talk about colonialism also but

2437
01:37:00,530 --> 01:36:57,600
like they cut out a tomb and like an

2438
01:37:02,510 --> 01:37:00,540
ancient Egyptian tomb and to me it's so

2439
01:37:05,930 --> 01:37:02,520
beautiful to like look in there and see

2440
01:37:07,790 --> 01:37:05,940
like this a hand carved this right like

2441
01:37:09,050 --> 01:37:07,800
when I was in undergrad I did these

2442
01:37:11,090 --> 01:37:09,060
artifact reports as part of an

2443
01:37:13,910 --> 01:37:11,100
archeology class and like this little

2444
01:37:16,070 --> 01:37:13,920
clay figure that was made six thousand

2445
01:37:18,590 --> 01:37:16,080
years ago right and again that that

2446
01:37:20,570 --> 01:37:18,600
continuing impulse to create that into

2447
01:37:22,669 --> 01:37:20,580
that continuing impulse I think

2448
01:37:25,129 --> 01:37:22,679
creativity is a ritual action also just

2449
01:37:26,050 --> 01:37:25,139
in general and is Magic

2450
01:37:29,390 --> 01:37:26,060
um

2451
01:37:33,470 --> 01:37:29,400
that that magic is in the the practice

2452
01:37:35,330 --> 01:37:33,480
right it's it's not in well it's these

2453
01:37:37,550 --> 01:37:35,340
gods and it's these lines that you carve

2454
01:37:39,110 --> 01:37:37,560
in this way and it's this way that you

2455
01:37:42,290 --> 01:37:39,120
turn around

2456
01:37:43,370 --> 01:37:42,300
no no it's it's that you are creating

2457
01:37:44,629 --> 01:37:43,380
something and that you are doing

2458
01:37:45,950 --> 01:37:44,639
something because that's what people

2459
01:37:47,810 --> 01:37:45,960
have been doing

2460
01:37:49,370 --> 01:37:47,820
since book you know before we have any

2461
01:37:52,070 --> 01:37:49,380
record of it

2462
01:37:58,550 --> 01:37:54,770
speaking of engaging uh with those uh

2463
01:38:01,129 --> 01:37:58,560
those pigs deeper sort of like uh

2464
01:38:02,390 --> 01:38:01,139
moments of connection with the Universe

2465
01:38:04,250 --> 01:38:02,400
um we've talked on the show before like

2466
01:38:06,229 --> 01:38:04,260
I'm open about that I've taken

2467
01:38:07,910 --> 01:38:06,239
psilocybin many times

2468
01:38:10,370 --> 01:38:07,920
um I think it's a it's like a replicable

2469
01:38:12,229 --> 01:38:10,380
consistent effect if you have the dosage

2470
01:38:13,790 --> 01:38:12,239
if you know the dosage as part of why I

2471
01:38:16,189 --> 01:38:13,800
think regulation makes sense people can

2472
01:38:18,050 --> 01:38:16,199
be safe with what they're doing

2473
01:38:19,490 --> 01:38:18,060
um you know and like so for me I

2474
01:38:22,970 --> 01:38:19,500
experienced it as like a physical

2475
01:38:24,770 --> 01:38:22,980
material thing that enables abstraction

2476
01:38:27,229 --> 01:38:24,780
and stuff but I'm not saying that's what

2477
01:38:28,430 --> 01:38:27,239
it is that's what I I believe there's

2478
01:38:30,169 --> 01:38:28,440
strong evidence for but you know

2479
01:38:33,229 --> 01:38:30,179
whatever that could also be whatever I

2480
01:38:35,930 --> 01:38:33,239
don't need to have it be that um that's

2481
01:38:39,649 --> 01:38:35,940
that like I reckon so deeply the value

2482
01:38:41,390 --> 01:38:39,659
in those experiences do you uh have

2483
01:38:44,810 --> 01:38:41,400
experience with that kind of experience

2484
01:38:46,550 --> 01:38:44,820
if so I'm curious like what method like

2485
01:38:48,169 --> 01:38:46,560
you don't need to say Obviously but if

2486
01:38:49,910 --> 01:38:48,179
you have taken psychedelics to get there

2487
01:38:51,950 --> 01:38:49,920
or if you just do it through a retro

2488
01:38:53,870 --> 01:38:51,960
ritual what's the most effective route

2489
01:38:56,390 --> 01:38:53,880
for you and do you see those as sort of

2490
01:39:00,350 --> 01:38:56,400
like parallel or like the same thing uh

2491
01:39:03,169 --> 01:39:00,360
yeah I do so I um again I've had panic

2492
01:39:05,330 --> 01:39:03,179
attacks off and on since I was five so I

2493
01:39:07,850 --> 01:39:05,340
know like like you can just use your

2494
01:39:11,450 --> 01:39:07,860
brain to change your physiology and have

2495
01:39:14,689 --> 01:39:11,460
uh an experience and part of our of

2496
01:39:17,930 --> 01:39:14,699
chaos magic is again getting you to like

2497
01:39:19,910 --> 01:39:17,940
an ecstatic state right you can do that

2498
01:39:22,610 --> 01:39:19,920
with anxiety you can do that with sex

2499
01:39:23,870 --> 01:39:22,620
like oh whatever gets you to gets you

2500
01:39:27,110 --> 01:39:23,880
there

2501
01:39:29,209 --> 01:39:27,120
um and and so similarly to me you know

2502
01:39:31,610 --> 01:39:29,219
this idea that like okay meditation can

2503
01:39:35,570 --> 01:39:31,620
can cause these certain like psychic

2504
01:39:36,950 --> 01:39:35,580
States but mushrooms can as well and if

2505
01:39:40,370 --> 01:39:36,960
you're willing to break your brain open

2506
01:39:42,410 --> 01:39:40,380
like hero dose on shrooms right go talk

2507
01:39:44,209 --> 01:39:42,420
to God for a while like maybe you'll

2508
01:39:47,510 --> 01:39:44,219
learn something

2509
01:39:53,149 --> 01:39:47,520
um oh yeah yeah maybe not something you

2510
01:39:57,110 --> 01:39:55,370
um but but that's that can be valuable

2511
01:39:59,689 --> 01:39:57,120
too right especially when you are

2512
01:40:01,310 --> 01:39:59,699
confront when when the walls are down

2513
01:40:02,890 --> 01:40:01,320
and you are being confronted with

2514
01:40:05,149 --> 01:40:02,900
something that you can't look away from

2515
01:40:06,890 --> 01:40:05,159
and maybe it's something deeper that you

2516
01:40:10,610 --> 01:40:06,900
need to interrogate in your own life

2517
01:40:12,530 --> 01:40:10,620
again if that's a hero dose on shrooms

2518
01:40:14,209 --> 01:40:12,540
or if that's a panic attack that leaves

2519
01:40:16,729 --> 01:40:14,219
you fetal on the floor

2520
01:40:18,890 --> 01:40:16,739
but like that your brain your body are

2521
01:40:22,189 --> 01:40:18,900
trying to tell you something

2522
01:40:24,890 --> 01:40:22,199
um so yeah I'm Pro using whatever States

2523
01:40:27,290 --> 01:40:24,900
in whatever tools you need to get to the

2524
01:40:28,189 --> 01:40:27,300
States you need to achieve the magic you

2525
01:40:31,010 --> 01:40:28,199
need to

2526
01:40:33,970 --> 01:40:31,020
awesome yeah one thing I'm going to do a

2527
01:40:38,629 --> 01:40:33,980
super kind of like 20 people

2528
01:40:38,639 --> 01:40:43,370
discussed um Helena blavatsky

2529
01:40:47,930 --> 01:40:46,790
what do you think of her

2530
01:40:49,669 --> 01:40:47,940
um

2531
01:40:52,010 --> 01:40:49,679
I mean I

2532
01:40:54,229 --> 01:40:52,020
I love the last podcast on the left

2533
01:40:56,689 --> 01:40:54,239
series about her

2534
01:40:58,870 --> 01:40:56,699
um I think a lot of

2535
01:41:02,629 --> 01:40:58,880
I'll say a broadly I think most people

2536
01:41:04,850 --> 01:41:02,639
who are publicly like mediums or

2537
01:41:07,490 --> 01:41:04,860
spiritualists or anything like that are

2538
01:41:09,910 --> 01:41:07,500
faking it I think the power is real I

2539
01:41:12,290 --> 01:41:09,920
think people who are profiting off of it

2540
01:41:15,350 --> 01:41:12,300
they don't have it

2541
01:41:17,750 --> 01:41:15,360
um because because I I've had I have

2542
01:41:19,850 --> 01:41:17,760
friends who have had psychic dreams or

2543
01:41:22,250 --> 01:41:19,860
have known things again I think that

2544
01:41:23,810 --> 01:41:22,260
like a lot of people have even if

2545
01:41:25,129 --> 01:41:23,820
they're not necessarily willing to talk

2546
01:41:27,590 --> 01:41:25,139
about it

2547
01:41:29,629 --> 01:41:27,600
um my friend Courtney block she is

2548
01:41:30,950 --> 01:41:29,639
researching Maria white right now and

2549
01:41:32,209 --> 01:41:30,960
Raya White

2550
01:41:33,770 --> 01:41:32,219
taught didn't want to call them

2551
01:41:34,790 --> 01:41:33,780
paranormal experiences she wanted to

2552
01:41:36,890 --> 01:41:34,800
call them extraordinary human

2553
01:41:38,870 --> 01:41:36,900
experiences because they're all just

2554
01:41:41,390 --> 01:41:38,880
things that we experience

2555
01:41:43,609 --> 01:41:41,400
in one way or another right like why do

2556
01:41:45,530 --> 01:41:43,619
again that idea of the Paranormal this

2557
01:41:47,689 --> 01:41:45,540
this thing that capitalistic like this

2558
01:41:50,209 --> 01:41:47,699
is separate from me as opposed to it as

2559
01:41:52,550 --> 01:41:50,219
a human experiencing something and and

2560
01:41:53,270 --> 01:41:52,560
moving forward on something

2561
01:41:56,090 --> 01:41:53,280
um

2562
01:41:59,570 --> 01:41:56,100
so yeah I think blavatsky again based

2563
01:42:01,010 --> 01:41:59,580
off of that series uh I I don't think

2564
01:42:02,209 --> 01:42:01,020
she was doing anything real I think she

2565
01:42:04,250 --> 01:42:02,219
conned a whole bunch of people though

2566
01:42:07,910 --> 01:42:04,260
that's its own form of magic frankly

2567
01:42:11,530 --> 01:42:07,920
right it really is uh that's real

2568
01:42:16,310 --> 01:42:14,209
I'm watching uh a whole slew of people

2569
01:42:17,570 --> 01:42:16,320
on Twitter basically refuse to speak my

2570
01:42:20,330 --> 01:42:17,580
name

2571
01:42:23,390 --> 01:42:20,340
um yes and I consider this High magic

2572
01:42:24,830 --> 01:42:23,400
that simply will not say my name they'll

2573
01:42:28,669 --> 01:42:24,840
allude to me constantly but won't

2574
01:42:33,350 --> 01:42:31,550
some Voldemort [\h__\h] it's incredible I

2575
01:42:35,030 --> 01:42:33,360
again again and that's the whole thing

2576
01:42:37,030 --> 01:42:35,040
about chaos magic it's just like things

2577
01:42:40,070 --> 01:42:37,040
only have power if you give them power

2578
01:42:42,830 --> 01:42:40,080
and so you're if you don't want somebody

2579
01:42:45,590 --> 01:42:42,840
to have power or you don't like them but

2580
01:42:47,610 --> 01:42:45,600
you're still feeding this aggregor

2581
01:42:49,850 --> 01:42:47,620
basically yeah yeah

2582
01:42:53,629 --> 01:42:49,860
[Music]

2583
01:42:56,870 --> 01:42:55,129
who do you think's like doing the most

2584
01:42:58,729 --> 01:42:56,880
interesting work on Magic right now or

2585
01:43:00,470 --> 01:42:58,739
it could be historic like like if you

2586
01:43:03,350 --> 01:43:00,480
were to recommend a work or a book or

2587
01:43:05,270 --> 01:43:03,360
something on chaos magic for like I

2588
01:43:07,129 --> 01:43:05,280
would say the average UFO person but I

2589
01:43:10,070 --> 01:43:07,139
don't want to I'm not sure how many

2590
01:43:12,410 --> 01:43:10,080
board book toddler things are available

2591
01:43:15,350 --> 01:43:12,420
so let's let's just go with like the

2592
01:43:17,149 --> 01:43:15,360
average person for me I'm curious yes I

2593
01:43:20,030 --> 01:43:17,159
want to read something okay what would

2594
01:43:22,490 --> 01:43:20,040
you recommend yes uh you should read

2595
01:43:24,229 --> 01:43:22,500
um uh it's usually there it's sold in uh

2596
01:43:26,570 --> 01:43:24,239
two volumes so it's a Lieber known

2597
01:43:29,930 --> 01:43:26,580
psychonaut by Peter Carroll

2598
01:43:30,890 --> 01:43:29,940
um that is the book that is or the two

2599
01:43:34,850 --> 01:43:30,900
books

2600
01:43:37,070 --> 01:43:34,860
um his sequel a Libra chaos I think

2601
01:43:38,930 --> 01:43:37,080
actually misses the point and he misses

2602
01:43:40,970 --> 01:43:38,940
his own point of chaos magic because he

2603
01:43:44,510 --> 01:43:40,980
tries to turn chaos magic into math and

2604
01:43:46,430 --> 01:43:44,520
like I love math but math and Magic are

2605
01:43:48,290 --> 01:43:46,440
not the same right like if you want to

2606
01:43:50,209 --> 01:43:48,300
do science do science again I think the

2607
01:43:52,250 --> 01:43:50,219
power of chaos magic is it's all make em

2608
01:43:53,990 --> 01:43:52,260
ups and we're just excited about our

2609
01:43:56,930 --> 01:43:54,000
make em ups

2610
01:43:59,090 --> 01:43:56,940
um so yeah uh Libra Nolan and psychonaut

2611
01:44:00,830 --> 01:43:59,100
that that's the book that made me

2612
01:44:02,870 --> 01:44:00,840
realize that I had been practicing chaos

2613
01:44:04,970 --> 01:44:02,880
magic for years and didn't know that

2614
01:44:08,090 --> 01:44:04,980
that's what I was doing it just

2615
01:44:10,189 --> 01:44:08,100
solidified like oh okay okay and then

2616
01:44:12,109 --> 01:44:10,199
there's actually like tips in there for

2617
01:44:14,030 --> 01:44:12,119
developing your own practice

2618
01:44:19,669 --> 01:44:14,040
um because it's very practice oriented

2619
01:44:27,590 --> 01:44:23,090
have you experienced like the power of

2620
01:44:29,930 --> 01:44:27,600
ritual in other contexts like growing up

2621
01:44:31,790 --> 01:44:29,940
uh you know I mean obviously you don't

2622
01:44:32,990 --> 01:44:31,800
need to get into any detail if you don't

2623
01:44:34,790 --> 01:44:33,000
want to but I was just curious like if

2624
01:44:36,649 --> 01:44:34,800
you had a religious upbringing like

2625
01:44:38,270 --> 01:44:36,659
going to church like with songs and

2626
01:44:40,310 --> 01:44:38,280
stuff and like we talked a little bit

2627
01:44:43,430 --> 01:44:40,320
about like institutions sort of like

2628
01:44:46,129 --> 01:44:43,440
having a monopoly on those uh processes

2629
01:44:48,830 --> 01:44:46,139
that produce these sort of like amazing

2630
01:44:52,550 --> 01:44:48,840
experiences yeah yes

2631
01:44:53,990 --> 01:44:52,560
um so I again my mother is an

2632
01:44:56,030 --> 01:44:54,000
Evangelical Christian

2633
01:44:58,729 --> 01:44:56,040
but she also

2634
01:45:01,129 --> 01:44:58,739
I mean probably has ADHD might also be

2635
01:45:05,090 --> 01:45:01,139
autistic hates people hates

2636
01:45:09,050 --> 01:45:05,100
organizations does not go to church

2637
01:45:10,729 --> 01:45:09,060
um practice astrology like I you know I

2638
01:45:12,050 --> 01:45:10,739
grew up believing that Jesus was my

2639
01:45:13,790 --> 01:45:12,060
savior and you could just feel him in

2640
01:45:16,850 --> 01:45:13,800
your heart I also knew my entire birth

2641
01:45:19,990 --> 01:45:16,860
chart growing up right so she's just

2642
01:45:23,090 --> 01:45:20,000
always done her own thing as well

2643
01:45:26,689 --> 01:45:23,100
but on my podcast I've interviewed

2644
01:45:28,189 --> 01:45:26,699
multiple I think three people who grew

2645
01:45:29,689 --> 01:45:28,199
up Pentecostal or who were in the

2646
01:45:31,729 --> 01:45:29,699
Pentecostal church at some point and

2647
01:45:34,189 --> 01:45:31,739
then became magic right there yes

2648
01:45:35,870 --> 01:45:34,199
exactly

2649
01:45:38,810 --> 01:45:35,880
yes

2650
01:45:42,410 --> 01:45:38,820
um and you know speaking in tongues and

2651
01:45:44,629 --> 01:45:42,420
having the gift of Prophecy and and all

2652
01:45:46,850 --> 01:45:44,639
of those things that in one specific

2653
01:45:50,390 --> 01:45:46,860
content the context mean that you're

2654
01:45:53,810 --> 01:45:50,400
holy and pure but is outside of that

2655
01:45:57,109 --> 01:45:53,820
context it's the devil like there is no

2656
01:45:59,510 --> 01:45:57,119
there is no equivocating like it it is

2657
01:46:00,350 --> 01:45:59,520
one or it is the other

2658
01:46:05,209 --> 01:46:00,360
um

2659
01:46:07,430 --> 01:46:05,219
yes uh uh it's it's such a uh it's such

2660
01:46:09,530 --> 01:46:07,440
a fascinating thing because again you

2661
01:46:12,350 --> 01:46:09,540
have that like ecstatic magical

2662
01:46:14,330 --> 01:46:12,360
experience group ritual

2663
01:46:16,490 --> 01:46:14,340
um but it only happens in church and

2664
01:46:18,470 --> 01:46:16,500
it's only from this one God from this

2665
01:46:19,669 --> 01:46:18,480
one book that we've decided is the holy

2666
01:46:22,669 --> 01:46:19,679
word

2667
01:46:26,030 --> 01:46:22,679
um and and witches have that experience

2668
01:46:29,750 --> 01:46:26,040
outside of those structures and realize

2669
01:46:31,669 --> 01:46:29,760
that it's them and it's not the thing

2670
01:46:34,010 --> 01:46:31,679
um but again when people are taught that

2671
01:46:36,050 --> 01:46:34,020
they they need these things to mediate

2672
01:46:37,370 --> 01:46:36,060
their experience with the Divine then

2673
01:46:38,570 --> 01:46:37,380
they'll gravitate towards that and they

2674
01:46:41,209 --> 01:46:38,580
won't see their own power and they'll

2675
01:46:43,669 --> 01:46:41,219
see people who attract and want to have

2676
01:46:46,010 --> 01:46:43,679
their own power cultivate that power as

2677
01:46:47,450 --> 01:46:46,020
demonic or evil

2678
01:46:49,850 --> 01:46:47,460
um you know somebody you're supposed to

2679
01:46:52,189 --> 01:46:49,860
cast out so I feel like I had this

2680
01:46:55,010 --> 01:46:52,199
really interesting

2681
01:46:58,010 --> 01:46:55,020
like again barely went to church growing

2682
01:47:00,410 --> 01:46:58,020
up but very much believed as my mom did

2683
01:47:02,270 --> 01:47:00,420
like you believe in Jesus Jesus is the

2684
01:47:03,290 --> 01:47:02,280
son of God Jesus is your savior you go

2685
01:47:06,830 --> 01:47:03,300
to heaven

2686
01:47:09,050 --> 01:47:06,840
and a physical visceral experience that

2687
01:47:12,229 --> 01:47:09,060
I would feel in my chest when I would

2688
01:47:14,629 --> 01:47:12,239
imagine Jesus and the love of Jesus it

2689
01:47:17,870 --> 01:47:14,639
is the same physical experience I have

2690
01:47:20,390 --> 01:47:17,880
ritually when I meditate on Kali Ma it

2691
01:47:23,090 --> 01:47:20,400
is this it is the same

2692
01:47:26,030 --> 01:47:23,100
um the the same tingling up here that

2693
01:47:28,430 --> 01:47:26,040
same fullness here it's the same I can

2694
01:47:30,950 --> 01:47:28,440
lean into that at any moment and feel it

2695
01:47:34,910 --> 01:47:30,960
and replicate that in my body

2696
01:47:36,770 --> 01:47:34,920
it's it's not you know again I my

2697
01:47:38,810 --> 01:47:36,780
journey allowed me to see like oh it's

2698
01:47:42,290 --> 01:47:38,820
it's not that it was never that it was

2699
01:47:44,750 --> 01:47:42,300
it was me and my connection to something

2700
01:47:46,729 --> 01:47:44,760
yeah

2701
01:47:49,129 --> 01:47:46,739
um but I also know a lot of people who

2702
01:47:51,350 --> 01:47:49,139
grew up very religious and they have

2703
01:47:54,290 --> 01:47:51,360
incredible stories

2704
01:47:57,410 --> 01:47:54,300
about that like being in the church band

2705
01:47:59,689 --> 01:47:57,420
or you know again having visions

2706
01:48:01,310 --> 01:47:59,699
um having the gift of Prophecy and then

2707
01:48:02,390 --> 01:48:01,320
as soon as it doesn't line up with the

2708
01:48:03,169 --> 01:48:02,400
church

2709
01:48:06,470 --> 01:48:03,179
um

2710
01:48:08,870 --> 01:48:06,480
you're out right yeah well that's the

2711
01:48:12,709 --> 01:48:08,880
interesting thing like the culture is so

2712
01:48:14,990 --> 01:48:12,719
powerfully like this core like

2713
01:48:17,390 --> 01:48:15,000
the threat of being

2714
01:48:20,689 --> 01:48:17,400
put out of that culture is so powerful

2715
01:48:24,350 --> 01:48:20,699
right like and it resists the change in

2716
01:48:26,510 --> 01:48:24,360
the ideas it's like I remember I ordered

2717
01:48:28,010 --> 01:48:26,520
like a simple English Bible many many

2718
01:48:29,990 --> 01:48:28,020
years ago to sort of like read through

2719
01:48:31,250 --> 01:48:30,000
to get what the heck was going on and I

2720
01:48:32,810 --> 01:48:31,260
felt like I was looking at the sections

2721
01:48:34,850 --> 01:48:32,820
on it's like where in the Bible does it

2722
01:48:37,129 --> 01:48:34,860
actually instruct you how to pray and I

2723
01:48:40,490 --> 01:48:37,139
felt like I go to it and it's like go

2724
01:48:43,070 --> 01:48:40,500
into your house go into the closet close

2725
01:48:46,490 --> 01:48:43,080
the door so that no one can be with you

2726
01:48:48,050 --> 01:48:46,500
and do not make a single sound and

2727
01:48:49,729 --> 01:48:48,060
that's how you're instructed to pray in

2728
01:48:51,470 --> 01:48:49,739
the Bible yeah and it's the exact

2729
01:48:53,510 --> 01:48:51,480
opposite you go into as bigger room as

2730
01:48:55,070 --> 01:48:53,520
there is in your community and you all

2731
01:48:57,590 --> 01:48:55,080
make a lot of noise together

2732
01:48:59,390 --> 01:48:57,600
and as the connection to the actual text

2733
01:49:02,030 --> 01:48:59,400
that you say is written by like it's

2734
01:49:04,430 --> 01:49:02,040
like the disclosure kind of right

2735
01:49:07,430 --> 01:49:04,440
it doesn't matter it absolutely it

2736
01:49:10,189 --> 01:49:07,440
absolutely does and and people get so

2737
01:49:12,370 --> 01:49:10,199
wrapped up in again it's that the

2738
01:49:15,050 --> 01:49:12,380
culture and that expectation of

2739
01:49:17,870 --> 01:49:15,060
submitting to the will of the group

2740
01:49:19,010 --> 01:49:17,880
right disclosure is coming disclosure is

2741
01:49:21,890 --> 01:49:19,020
coming

2742
01:49:25,850 --> 01:49:21,900
disclosure has been promised for 60 odd

2743
01:49:28,790 --> 01:49:25,860
years uh I haven't seen it you know

2744
01:49:30,649 --> 01:49:28,800
um and so everybody is just supposed to

2745
01:49:33,169 --> 01:49:30,659
fall in and very similarly with like

2746
01:49:35,689 --> 01:49:33,179
what a church tells you Christianity is

2747
01:49:37,850 --> 01:49:35,699
you got to fall in line with that and

2748
01:49:40,250 --> 01:49:37,860
and again everybody has to fall in line

2749
01:49:42,590 --> 01:49:40,260
because again once you let in the

2750
01:49:45,649 --> 01:49:42,600
gnostics are still my favorite right

2751
01:49:47,330 --> 01:49:45,659
because we're all equal you draw lots to

2752
01:49:49,310 --> 01:49:47,340
see who's the priest that day and who's

2753
01:49:51,470 --> 01:49:49,320
going to give service anybody can do it

2754
01:49:53,570 --> 01:49:51,480
though because we are all equal right we

2755
01:49:54,290 --> 01:49:53,580
are all children of God

2756
01:49:57,290 --> 01:49:54,300
um

2757
01:49:59,169 --> 01:49:57,300
that like again if you want to maintain

2758
01:50:02,030 --> 01:49:59,179
a hierarchy

2759
01:50:04,129 --> 01:50:02,040
controlling everybody's beliefs is the

2760
01:50:07,669 --> 01:50:04,139
way to control make sure that you're at

2761
01:50:10,669 --> 01:50:07,679
the top right and that nobody else can

2762
01:50:11,870 --> 01:50:10,679
um can question that so so yeah you see

2763
01:50:14,629 --> 01:50:11,880
it in disclosure you see it in the

2764
01:50:17,990 --> 01:50:17,030
it's interesting oh sorry go online I

2765
01:50:19,910 --> 01:50:18,000
was just going to say thank you to

2766
01:50:24,169 --> 01:50:19,920
Gobstopper yes I'm broadcasting from the

2767
01:50:28,850 --> 01:50:26,629
um sorry go ahead Campbell

2768
01:50:31,129 --> 01:50:28,860
uh oh God I don't know what I was going

2769
01:50:33,350 --> 01:50:31,139
to say now something fantastic let's

2770
01:50:36,590 --> 01:50:33,360
move on okay wait we're almost at the

2771
01:50:39,050 --> 01:50:36,600
top of the hour so yeah what all right I

2772
01:50:41,750 --> 01:50:39,060
know Vanessa this is amazing we loved

2773
01:50:44,030 --> 01:50:41,760
having you on yes thank you

2774
01:50:46,910 --> 01:50:44,040
um where can our viewers and our

2775
01:50:48,890 --> 01:50:46,920
listeners find you so I'm uh all over

2776
01:50:50,209 --> 01:50:48,900
the place because ADHD

2777
01:50:52,629 --> 01:50:50,219
um if you're interested in seeing my

2778
01:50:56,030 --> 01:50:52,639
chainmail uh that is Kali butterfly

2779
01:50:57,410 --> 01:50:56,040
k-a-l-i butterfly.com that's also the

2780
01:51:01,430 --> 01:50:57,420
handle you can find me on most social

2781
01:51:02,750 --> 01:51:01,440
media so Twitter Instagram around some

2782
01:51:06,229 --> 01:51:02,760
parts

2783
01:51:08,930 --> 01:51:06,239
um the uh so personal pans is my podcast

2784
01:51:10,970 --> 01:51:08,940
is at anchor.fm although I think that

2785
01:51:14,750 --> 01:51:10,980
recently changed but it still redirects

2786
01:51:16,970 --> 01:51:14,760
anchor dot fm personal pans um I'm also

2787
01:51:18,350 --> 01:51:16,980
on Instagram at that personal pans and

2788
01:51:22,149 --> 01:51:18,360
on Twitter

2789
01:51:24,590 --> 01:51:22,159
um and then pampericon oh thank you

2790
01:51:26,450 --> 01:51:24,600
Chad has been lovely from what I've seen

2791
01:51:27,890 --> 01:51:26,460
so everybody's yes that's because of

2792
01:51:28,629 --> 01:51:27,900
people are [\h__\h] I just ban them and

2793
01:51:31,370 --> 01:51:28,639
kick them

2794
01:51:32,810 --> 01:51:31,380
we have a good crowd right this is not a

2795
01:51:36,129 --> 01:51:32,820
democracy this isn't benevolent

2796
01:51:38,149 --> 01:51:36,139
dictatorship so people are Jewish

2797
01:51:40,070 --> 01:51:38,159
again that's kind of how I run

2798
01:51:42,229 --> 01:51:40,080
pampericons like I found out something

2799
01:51:45,729 --> 01:51:42,239
about you you were on the ban list yes

2800
01:51:50,990 --> 01:51:45,739
yeah and I'm the decider so that's it

2801
01:51:54,229 --> 01:51:51,000
I'm the decider yeah no appeals process

2802
01:51:55,609 --> 01:51:54,239
um speaking of you can find uh uh the

2803
01:51:57,050 --> 01:51:55,619
past two years of pampericon at

2804
01:51:58,430 --> 01:51:57,060
pampericon.com

2805
01:52:00,830 --> 01:51:58,440
um most of that just redirects to

2806
01:52:02,930 --> 01:52:00,840
YouTube which is on there

2807
01:52:06,310 --> 01:52:02,940
um I have a patreon but I uh don't

2808
01:52:08,689 --> 01:52:06,320
promote at all it's uh patreon.com

2809
01:52:11,330 --> 01:52:08,699
witchcrafts uh if you're interested in

2810
01:52:13,129 --> 01:52:11,340
Tarot readings or tarotmail or just want

2811
01:52:15,050 --> 01:52:13,139
to see either

2812
01:52:17,149 --> 01:52:15,060
um episodes of the show before I release

2813
01:52:19,430 --> 01:52:17,159
them publicly or new creative projects

2814
01:52:21,709 --> 01:52:19,440
you can follow me there

2815
01:52:24,430 --> 01:52:21,719
beautiful yeah Vanessa thank you so much

2816
01:52:28,910 --> 01:52:27,410
anytime this is wonderful this is great

2817
01:52:33,649 --> 01:52:28,920
um I'm gonna put you off the stream and

2818
01:52:39,350 --> 01:52:36,410
all right gentlemen we did it without

2819
01:52:41,330 --> 01:52:39,360
Nick we've made it Miracles full two

2820
01:52:43,669 --> 01:52:41,340
hours I know it is a miracle how did we

2821
01:52:45,590 --> 01:52:43,679
do it I don't know we had a very

2822
01:52:46,669 --> 01:52:45,600
compelling guest yeah

2823
01:52:49,010 --> 01:52:46,679
um

2824
01:52:50,510 --> 01:52:49,020
what's going on in your guys world how

2825
01:52:51,590 --> 01:52:50,520
are things

2826
01:52:54,050 --> 01:52:51,600
pretty good

2827
01:52:55,970 --> 01:52:54,060
anything going on

2828
01:52:57,410 --> 01:52:55,980
what were you gonna say Louise I pause

2829
01:52:59,149 --> 01:52:57,420
because you're leaning forward I thought

2830
01:53:02,410 --> 01:52:59,159
you're gonna have something big oh no I

2831
01:53:04,550 --> 01:53:02,420
was just checking my bag of the phone

2832
01:53:06,649 --> 01:53:04,560
oh snacks

2833
01:53:09,830 --> 01:53:06,659
checking out any left are about to be

2834
01:53:14,990 --> 01:53:12,290
it nice yeah but no yeah just uh getting

2835
01:53:18,530 --> 01:53:15,000
ready for the the warm spring season

2836
01:53:20,870 --> 01:53:18,540
it's exciting oh yeah time changing too

2837
01:53:22,970 --> 01:53:20,880
it like is like energizing man like look

2838
01:53:25,370 --> 01:53:22,980
outside at 7 30 and I can still like see

2839
01:53:26,689 --> 01:53:25,380
across the street it's like oh my god oh

2840
01:53:28,490 --> 01:53:26,699
yeah dude I feel like I'm on a party

2841
01:53:30,470 --> 01:53:28,500
drug like once it starts getting late

2842
01:53:34,490 --> 01:53:30,480
and I'm outside in springtime I am like

2843
01:53:38,030 --> 01:53:34,500
Go Go 24 7. so next week

2844
01:53:40,970 --> 01:53:38,040
we have talisma on we've spoken to

2845
01:53:45,590 --> 01:53:42,890
um and then the week after on the 29th

2846
01:53:46,430 --> 01:53:45,600
we will be welcoming Kurt Collins onto

2847
01:53:47,810 --> 01:53:46,440
the show

2848
01:53:49,850 --> 01:53:47,820
um and it's also noteworthy because I

2849
01:53:52,310 --> 01:53:49,860
will not be here on the 29th so it will

2850
01:53:53,870 --> 01:53:52,320
be you gentlemen running things Campbell

2851
01:53:56,629 --> 01:53:53,880
I hope that I can train you well on

2852
01:53:59,450 --> 01:53:56,639
stream yard I hope you get some viewers

2853
01:54:00,649 --> 01:53:59,460
um well I I was hoping you weren't going

2854
01:54:02,510 --> 01:54:00,659
to tell people you weren't going to be

2855
01:54:04,970 --> 01:54:02,520
here now we're in trouble sorry people

2856
01:54:07,729 --> 01:54:04,980
okay well we'll leave it up in the air I

2857
01:54:09,470 --> 01:54:07,739
probably but Kirk odds is going to be a

2858
01:54:10,729 --> 01:54:09,480
baller guest he almost never does shows

2859
01:54:11,810 --> 01:54:10,739
so it's super exciting that we've got

2860
01:54:13,609 --> 01:54:11,820
him on

2861
01:54:15,590 --> 01:54:13,619
um and I honestly think especially Nick

2862
01:54:17,209 --> 01:54:15,600
will be an amazing interviewer for that

2863
01:54:20,030 --> 01:54:17,219
episode because Nick's such a case guy

2864
01:54:21,709 --> 01:54:20,040
oh yeah Louise and Nick and uh I've got

2865
01:54:23,149 --> 01:54:21,719
a few things too Kurt's great he's got

2866
01:54:24,770 --> 01:54:23,159
his uh you know blue blue lines and

2867
01:54:28,490 --> 01:54:24,780
stuff like that yeah it's cash Landrum

2868
01:54:30,290 --> 01:54:28,500
stuff yes Incredible Cool all right

2869
01:54:32,629 --> 01:54:30,300
if there's nothing else I'm happy to say

2870
01:54:34,850 --> 01:54:32,639
goodnight to everyone be safe be well

2871
01:54:40,910 --> 01:54:34,860
and we will see you guys next week

2872
01:55:03,650 --> 01:55:01,270
[Music]

2873
01:55:16,860 --> 01:55:03,660
thank you

2874
01:55:19,729 --> 01:55:16,870
[Music]

2875
01:55:20,990 --> 01:55:19,739
[Applause]